Shawna Curee – cakes, crochet & connecting in the metaverse

How can engaging in creative activities influence an individual's sense of self and overall fulfillment in life?
Shawna Curee was a very creative child, who loved drawing, writing, and creating games with her siblings. A nurturing home and school environment allowed her to freely explore her artistic inclinations, until, inspired by the film Free Willy, Shawna decided she wanted to be a marine biologist instead of following her creative passions.
At college she soon realized that wasn't the right path for her, and explored a few other majors before settling on journalism.
Looking back, Shawna recognizes that during the years when she lacked a creative outlet, she felt less like herself. For Shawna creativity is not just a hobby but a vital component of her identity and well-being.
We also chat about Shawna's experiences with baking and how turning her creative love into a business led to burnout. Monetizing her creativity diminished her enjoyment of it, so now Shawna's creative pursuits serve her as personal fulfillment rather than for financial gain.
Writing has also played a significant role in Shawna's life and she is currently working on a book that explores the value of slowing down and appreciating the beauty in the world around us. This project is deeply personal, as it stems from her desire to share her experiences and insights with her family, ensuring they understand who she is beyond her role as a mother and wife.
Shawna is also the co-host of two podcasts recorded in the metaverse, and couldn't resist turning the conversation onto me as she asked me a question and told the story of how we met.

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Chapters

• 2:48 Creative outlets in adulthood
• 5:03 Marine biology career aspirations
• 10:55 Cake making journey
• 18:17 Value of creative hobbies
• 23:18 Noticing nature
• 25:36 [Ad] Clairvoyaging
• 26:24 (Cont.) Noticing nature
• 27:21 Podcasting in the metaverse
• 28:59 Virtual connections through avatars
• 35:34 Mindful Bytes
• 37:11 Legacy through writing a book
• 38:02 Connect with Shawna

Transcript

0:38

That's what has given me so much gratitude for the way I was raised that not my teachers or my parents ever discouraged me from being creative. And in a weird twist of fate, I myself decided I did not want to be creative. I didn't notice at the time, but looking back, I never felt less myself than when I did not have a creative outlet of any kind. You would think, and I personally thought, if you're looking at an avatar, you would realize you're looking at an avatar, and you would think, like, this is not a real person, I'm talking to a cartoon. But I was so surprised when I got in there, even the first time, and I'm talking to people. Like, your brain somehow recognizes, no, this is a real person, face-to-face, we are talking, we are looking into each other's eyes. It's unbelievable. The value of being able to slow down and notice what's around us. There's so much beauty and so much wonder. The more you look, the more you Hi, I'm Claire, founder of Creativity Found, a community for creative learners and educators, connecting adults who want to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them do so with workshops, courses, online events and kits. For this podcast, I chat with people who have found or re-found their creativity as adults. We'll explore their childhood experiences of the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they now love, and consider the barriers they may have experienced between the two. We'll also explore what it is that people value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits, and how their creative lives, in which they're practical, necessary everyday lives. This time I'm chatting with Shawna Curee. Hi, Shawna. How are you? Hi, Claire. So good to see you. How Yeah, I'm very well, thank you. Can you start by telling Yes. So there's a couple ways. I would say the first way is with homemaking. You know, I love decorating my house and staging and cooking and things like that. But I also love to crochet. And so that's sort of a new hobby of mine within the last couple of years. And I progressed from potholders and scarves and things. And now I make stuffed animals. That's a lot of fun for me. I love to do that, especially for gifts. And then the other way is writing. So I've been a writer my whole life and Oh, super. We'll hear more about that. Let's go back to childhood to start, though. Did you enjoy particular creative activities and were they encouraged in I was a really creative kid. I loved drawing. I started writing very young. I loved creating games with my brothers and sisters. I was the oldest, so that kind of fell on me to entertain them, you know? I loved everything creative. And yeah, my family was really supportive. You know, I grew up in the generation where it's not like my parents were saying like, Oh, you're amazing. You're awesome. You can be anything. They weren't really saying things like that. But when I would bring them my projects or, you know, something I had drawn or written, they would be like, That's good. Good job. Keep at it. And so they never gave me the idea that I couldn't do that professionally if I wanted to, which I now see as such a gift. I've been listening to all of your podcast episodes, and I've loved it. I binged it, especially after I first met you. I just started listening. They're fascinating to hear people's stories. And it helped me to identify and to put into words what my life has been like through a creativity lens. That's what has given me so much gratitude for the way I was raised, that not my teachers or my parents ever discouraged me from being creative. And in a weird twist of fate, I myself decided I did not want to be creative as a profession. Once Free Willy came out, the movie about the killer whale, When that came out, I decided I wanted to be a marine biologist. And I think I looked it up, Free Willy came out when I was 12. So I was still doing all of my creative things, but my mind was set on being a marine biologist. Even though it really would have suited me better as a person to go after something creative, I didn't. And you know, everyone was like, yeah, Well, I'm glad that this show has been able to inspire you And I love hearing about all the different things that people are doing. So it's opened up new doors for me to, to learn about new avenues Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah, that's interesting because you will know that a lot of the changes come when a people's school or people's parents either tell them they're not good at this or they're better at something else and something else is more important. But it's very interesting that you obviously came across a dream at that tender age and went with You know, it really does give a lot of credit to my parents that I said, I want to be a marine biologist. And they said, yeah, go for it. I lived in a state in the United States called Ohio, which is in the middle of the country. There are no oceans within, I mean, let's see, I could probably get to the Atlantic in like 10 hours. You know, we would come down to Florida, that takes like 15, 16. And then of course, you know, the Pacific is very, very far away, like 20 hours away, maybe longer. So it's funny, really, if you think about it, like, when I went to college, there was no marine biology program because there is no ocean. So they said, okay, I mean, you can work towards that. You have to start as a biology major. So I said, fine, great. I love biology. That's perfect. I don't know how it's set up in the UK, but in my particular school, it was semester. So it was like half of a school year and half of a school year. So I only made it as a biology major for one semester for half of the school year. before I realized, like, nope, this is not it for me. Marine biology has a lot to do with microorganisms and, you know, the chemical makeup of seawater and things. It was not interesting to me. Not to mention, I was a lot more interested in drinking and boys at college than I was at doing my schoolwork. So biology is very difficult. And once I got into chemical, no wait, what was it called? Oh, organic chemistry was the class where I realized I'm in way over my head, I've got to change my major. So from there, I changed my major two more times. Then I dropped out after my second year. So I have a history of making choices that are not suitable to myself. So my first major change, I can't even tell you where this came from, honestly, Claire. My first change was to forensics. So I wanted to be a forensic scientist. That is so far from anything that I could possibly do on a regular basis because I am very weak stomached, like I can't handle seeing blood, pain, injury. Like my husband got a splinter and as he was pulling it out, I almost passed out. A splinter. Do you think I would really be a forensic scientist of any kind? Absolutely not. Yeah. So let's see. First major, second major. My third major was actually a good fit for me. It was journalism. So that has really led into more of what I do now, which makes sense, right? Because I was always a writer. So why didn't I start off with that? You know, Yeah. So when you were at school, had you been writing and enjoyed writing a Okay, in high school, yes, I was writing a lot. I was part of a competitive creative writing team. You know, we would travel around to other schools and have writing competitions. I just wrote for fun. I journaled a lot. So I was really enjoying writing all the way through high school. When I got to college, that really started my creative dry spell that lasted several years. I didn't really do anything to feed myself creatively in college or my first two years of marriage. So kind of like your intro talks about, the real life stuff can stop you. And it did. And it I didn't notice at the time, but looking back, I never felt less myself than when I did not have a creative outlet of any kind. Also, in hindsight, I can see little ways that I was trying to be creative. For instance, how I said I love homemaking, my college dorm room, my roommate and I, we had houseplants and we had art on the walls and we had rugs on the floor, like not like a normal dorm room. So that was a way that we were kind of trying to be creative in our space, but it wasn't nearly enough to So then you've mentioned your husband, you've mentioned Yes. So on and off I've done writing for different things, but what I mainly write for now, aside from my personal writing, is with my husband's business, which is like a coaching, consulting, marketing business. I write a lot of blogs, articles. We have clients that I actually write for, for them to post on their own websites. All of the writing that he does, I edit. Oh, yes. Okay. So when my son, our son was turning one, I had seen this cake in a magazine and it was just stunning. You know, three layers, fondant covered. So it had that real smooth, beautiful look. And of course that would have been in 2005. So that was, you know, very in at that time. But we didn't have any money. So I thought, I have to make this thing. So I just started looking up online. Martha Stewart was very in at that time, so I learned everything I needed to know about how to make a big event cake and completely mistimed how much time that would take me. So the night before his birthday party, I stayed up all night long. I did not get one minute of sleep. So like, I look back at the pictures now, and I didn't have time to do anything with my hair, put on any makeup. At the time, when I looked back, I was like, Oh my gosh, I looked so rough. But then now looking at my 25 year old self, I'm like, Oh, I totally pulled it off. I couldn't do that now. But yeah, so that started a small like home-based cake business. So I started doing wedding cakes and big birthday cakes and shower cakes, like everything you could possibly need. And Oh, wow. So was that your main source of income then Well, no. Brian has always been the main income earner. As far as myself, yes, it was my main income because it gave me the flexibility to stay with Ashton, that's my son, you know, to be home with him in his younger years. And that first experience kind of set up my pattern because I would put him to bed and then bake all night basically, you know, when I had a Yeah, wow. And you don't do that now. Was that a conscious decision? Did you lose enthusiasm for I learned for myself that if I monetize something of mine creatively, I lose the passion for it. So I completely burnt out on baking. I mean, I barely bake anymore because it's just not fun for me anymore. And baking is pretty stressful, especially like a wedding cake where it's like a really big deal if you mess up, you know? And I always had very lovely clients. Like, you know, I've never been yelled at or anything like that. So somehow I didn't get any bridezillas. Is that a term that you use in UK? Yes, we know that. No, I never had any of those, thankfully. But yeah, I just burnt out on it. I was tired of the stress. I was tired of losing sleep. And I just realized like, I am not going to do this anymore. So I guess at the end, it was intentional. But through the years as I was working towards burning out, I didn't realize and I didn't think, hey, maybe I should do something to make this a little less stressful on myself. Because certainly staying up all night baking is not a good idea. That's not the best way to do it. No. Yeah, so so yeah, that's why I stopped that I just even with my crochet I'm finding that if I take an order with too tight of a deadline, I lose the joy in it Yeah, so I'm backing off of even selling them like designed by order I try to just make whatever I feel like and then my mom does this big craft show in Ohio I send back my animals through the mail to her and then she sells them for me So, that's much more enjoyable for me to see a pattern or come up with an idea that I'm excited about, then I make it, and then somebody always buys it. So, I try That's really interesting. thought on the whole idea of not putting the pressure on yourself, but also creating something that you want to create. And if somebody wants to buy it, then brilliant. But it doesn't matter if they don't either. I had another guest, one of my very, very earliest guests. And she said that when she painted something that she really, really liked, that those were the paintings that Yeah, I remember that interview. Yes. Fascinating. Yes. So let me ask you a question. Do you think that there always needs to be a way to make money from your creative outlet? Or do you think it's totally fine just to have something that you love to do that feeds you creatively and it doesn't have anything to Well, we could take this podcast, for example, because that certainly doesn't earn me any money. It costs me time and it's very enjoyable. But the problem with adults is that Often, we either have to be making money or we feel that something isn't valuable if it's not making any money. Lots of people will say, I really love doing this. I want to spend my whole time doing this, so I'm going to make it a business. They find, as you found with the cakes, the whole process of it then making money takes away the creativity. But on the other hand, you can see people who are working in a day job thinking, I just wish I could be at home doing such and such. So it is a very, very difficult balance. And a lot of the people that I speak with in this show will do both. So they won't always go, right, I'm going all out to make this my business. I work part time doing this and I get to do some time doing this. But yeah, it's definitely a balance and it definitely changes as well. You might feel great with it at some point and it's like working freelance. Sometimes you have loads and loads of work. And again, working freelance, you have to take the work when the work's there. So if you had a massive order, you'd feel like I have to get that massive order. And it's very difficult for people to say no, because the next week they might have no work whatsoever or no orders whatsoever. As with everything, it's like a GCSE, which is our qualifications at secondary school. You have to argue both ways. It's yes because of this and it's no because of this. There's no definitive answer. I think if you can spend some time at any point just doing something for yourself, then that would be a real ideal, even if you're getting stressed doing something arty crafty as a business, if you can still give yourself some time to do it just for yourself, which as you know, because you've obviously proven that you've been listening to this show a lot, is that where I came from doing this in the first place was not having any kind of thing that I was doing just for myself. Yeah, I really liked how you said adults feel like something doesn't have value if it's not making money. That really hit me because I think that's the root of it for me. try new things kind of every couple of years, like start something new. And then people always say, oh, you should be charging people for that. And part of me is like, yeah, you're right. Like, this could be my whole thing, you know? But then I have to remember, because over the years, I have learned who I am. And I know that's not going to work for me, you know? It's something I like the idea, like, a little on the part time. That's kind of what I do with crochet. You know, it's not my whole thing. I just do it when I feel like it, when I want to. Sometimes you get that, you know, little itch to be creative. And I'm kind of feeling that way right now about scrapbooking again. I used to scrapbook all the time. I loved it so much. And I'm feeling that kind of itch to scrapbook again. So let's go to the crochet then. How did So my mom, okay, let's go back a little further than that. I remember when I was a little kid, I mean, I was probably seven, I'm guessing, my great grandma tried to teach me how to crochet. And, you know, there's definitely something to be said about a very young child not having the right dexterity to be able to crochet. So I learned how to do that chain stitch, that base stitch, and I could not get any further. And every time I did, I was making my stitches so tight. I would try and try, but it just didn't go anywhere. My grandfather was this big jolly man. I mean, he looked like Santa Claus. He had white hair, white beard, big round man. And That's about a But he put it up on his shelf so he could see it. And every time I went there, I saw it. And it just makes me laugh to think about it now. Because of course, he was so kind when I gave it to him. He was excited and thrilled. But then he had to be thinking in his mind, like, what the heck am I supposed to do with this? So I always had it in my mind that I could crochet if I wanted to. So I, gosh, I don't know how many years ago it was now, maybe even like, seven or eight years ago. I lived in Florida. My mom lived in Ohio. That's about 15 hours apart. But my mom was coming for a vacation with all of our family. So I called her. I said, Hey, I want you to teach me to crochet on vacation. And she was thrilled. She said, yes, of course. I would love to do that. I said, no problem. I'll buy yarn when we get to the beach and then we will crochet. well we could not find any yarn we drove around and around and around could not find any yarn so i said oh well don't worry about it i'll figure it out so i came home and i started watching youtube videos and i learned how to crochet from youtube thank god for youtube oh Why, how did you come to, because you said earlier about you now crochet things, send it to your mom and your mom takes it to the craft fair. So does she do the same thing for herself as Yes. My mom, she is so experienced. She is probably three times faster than I am. So I only started gaining the confidence to make the stuffed animals, maybe like four years ago. Up until then, I could do blankets, I could do, I did some scarves, I did some hats, things like that. And I would look at what my mom was doing, because for a short time, too, we moved back to Ohio. So then we did get that experience of crocheting together. Yeah, so that was really amazing. But I would watch her and I would say, I can't do that. Like, there's no way I can do that. And she said, Oh, you can do it. It's not that hard. You just have to follow the pattern. So one day I just got the, you know, idea. I'm just going to try it, see what happens. And she was right. It's actually in some ways easier than other types of crocheting because almost everything is just a single stitch. Once I got it, I got it. You know, that's how it is with everything, right? Yes, so she pops out stuffed animals like you would not believe. At the craft show, she always has about three times the animals that I have been able to do in the same amount of Yeah, but you're right to recognise that if you were to try and compete against that, for example, it would be a matter of competing and it wouldn't be bringing you the happiness and you've learnt that this is why you want to do it and you do it in your own pace. Tell me a bit more about the writing and you've mentioned writing for work, but you're also writing for yourself again now. What brought that about and how do you like to Yeah, so it came about because I started to notice when I was talking to my friends specifically, that I'm not sure exactly where this came from. I've always been a very sensitive person. I love to be outside. And then I homeschooled our son. And part of it came from that too. But I noticed that I notice things a lot more than when I'm with my friends. And you know, I'll start pointing things out. I mean, birds, for instance, or lizards, flowers, plants, all sorts of things. I just like to look at nature, you know? And so I would start pointing things out and someone would always, number one, either be like, how do you know what that is? Or they would say, Wow. Interesting. Like they don't care at all, you know? Yeah. I hear you talking about birds right now. But it started to make me realize that I think I have something to tell people about the value of being able to slow down and notice what's around us. There's so much beauty and so much wonder. The more you look, the more you see. And if you kind of open up your mind and your heart to just how much there is to learn from nature and how much there is to, I don't know the right word. That's what I'm, that's what I'm working on in my book is to find a way to put it to words, what it feels like to take the time, like you have to slow down because you can't see these things if you're going from thing to thing to thing, because you're thinking about what you're doing. And I definitely am prone to do that. It's tunnel vision. You know, it's tunnel vision. You're thinking about what's next. But there's so much value in slowing down enough to look around. And, you know, it goes for people, too. You meet people that you never would have met if you just smile or say hi. And if you're in too big of a hurry, you don't have time to do that, you know. So that's a very confusing way to describe what my book will be like. It's about slowing down, looking around. It's about a lot of my personal experiences and things I've been able to see because I've over the years been working towards being the type of person that can just be present and learn from Yeah, brilliant. We met in real life at Podfest in January. For any listeners that don't know, I went to Florida for a podcast festival and it was fabulous. When Brian told me about the podcast that you work on together, I already knew about it because I'd heard about it on Buzzcast, which is the podcast about podcasting that I listen to that is produced by our mutual podcast hosting company, Buzzsprout. And it was at the Buzzsprout party that we met. And I'd love the idea of it when I'd heard that show because you record it in the metaverse. That's right. Which I find super exciting and fascinating. I haven't been in yet. I have looked at buying Ultima flips, the headsets. So tell me first about the show, what the show is and actually Yeah, so I'll start first by just telling you how it even started, because the Metaverse is still so It's still so weird to so many people that when we tell people, they're like, what does that even mean? What are you talking about? So it started because Brian's business mainly serves Christian radio broadcasters. Up till now, we've worked a lot with radio stations. And Brian was filming a commercial for the big conference that we go to. And part of it, as a joke, is Brian is on a headset, you know, the Oculus. And the funny, like, kind of twist of the commercial is that he's been on the headset now for two months and hasn't, you know, showered, done anything but eaten junk food. You know, he's surrounded by, like, Cheetos and he's got a beanie on. He's dirty looking. So the filmographer brought the headset for Brian to try out. And when he put it on, he said, this is way further advanced than I thought it was. Part of his business also is he researches new technologies. So we bought a headset. He started going in there and it was so amazing how fast he found a community. There were so many people and he felt like because it's so immersive, he could see how it would be so easy to escape from your real life and live your life in the metaverse. He could see how that was going to be such a temptation to people. So he got in there, he built a community immediately. You build worlds in the application we use is called Horizon Worlds. You build your own world and there are all sorts of things like you can have meeting spaces, there are restaurants, there are comedy clubs, there's anything you can think of you can find. So he built a world that is set up like a talk show. And it's called Killer Bee Studios. Our business is called Killer Bee Marketing. And he started a talk show where he was just inviting people to have a conversation. From the beginning, it was kind of set up to be like, we wanted to tell stories of hope, stories of overcoming people's life stories. You know, everyone has a story and there's so much to learn from other people's stories. So it started out that a girl that works for us, Olivia, she was the co-host because even at that time, I saw that, how awesome it would be, how exciting it would be, but I was not interested in being on a headset. You know, I was like, that's not my thing. That's your guys's thing. Have fun. So about a year in, Olivia needed a break. So I said, yeah, I would like to take over. Like I had seen the stories that were coming out of those interviews, and I wanted to be a part of that. So I became the co-host. Brian made me promise to stay at least six months. And now it's been like a year and a half and I love it. We record it in front of an audience. So a big part of that show is audience interaction. So we have a way that they can ask us questions, ask the guest questions. We've had artists, podcasters, a lot of music people since our industry is the music, you know, Christian music industry. We've had business leaders. We've had all kinds of interviews. It's interesting. It's fun. You never So you can have people from all over the shop, anywhere and everywhere, with their headsets on at that time, come into this world within Horizons and be in the audience. Yes. And see the avatar of your guests, see your avatars. They've all got their own Exactly. I'm glad you asked that because that gives me something interesting to point out. The first thing is that our guests, we send headsets to them with full explanations and videos of how they, how they log in, how they get in there, everything they have to do. So it makes it very easy. Right now we can only send headsets in the United States because it's so expensive to send overseas and stuff. Yes. So that's the first thing. But the second is You know, you would think, and I personally thought, if you're looking at an avatar, you would realize you're looking at an avatar and you would think like, this is not a real person. I'm talking to a cartoon. That's kind of what I thought. But I was so surprised when I got in there, even the first time, and I'm talking to people, like your brain somehow recognizes, no, this is a real person face to face. We are talking, we are looking into each other's eyes. It's unbelievable. I just, I still can't get over it after all this time. And you can have a real connection, a real conversation, grow a real friendship, even Yeah, well, no, that's brilliant. I mean, when I first started this podcast, Clubhouse as an app was a really big thing. And I made so many real friends through speaking with people on that app. I made a really, really good community. And a lot of them now I'm still in contact with and have met in real life. But also, I think similarly, I can quite easily accept that because if I go to Disney World and I see Winnie the Pooh or Tigger, I believe that's Winnie the Pooh or Tigger. I love that. I love that. That is so cute. I can see that. Yeah, yeah. Love all of that. You can see. I saw Chewbacca and I actually squeaked out louder than I nearly cried. Because I love Chewbacca. But then I went outside and there was another Chewbacca. But It's a Chicago from a different instance of the world. Yes. We can't gloss over this story about how we met. Okay, cool. Then you stop. It's just the cutest thing that's ever happened to me. Okay, so we're at this party. There's like standing tables around, right? So like people are just standing around. I had met this girl in line for the bar and we were standing at these tables talking and like quick connection, you know? And then out of the corner of my eye, I see a little redhead and she just walks straight up to our table and she says, I've been checking out the tables and yours is the best. I'm going to talk to you girls. And I thought, I love this girl. Like, yes. And same thing, quick connection. Like we just talked all night long. And I remember specifically, like towards the end of that evening, I said, you know, I know this is supposed to be about networking and things like Yeah, it was great, wasn't it? It was really, really fun evening. And yeah, you're right. We did make a big connection. But, and I've told you this before, is a way that, yeah, I'm very good at going to things like this and talking to people. at that particular event, at that particular time, lots of the tables and the seats, the people were closed off and you guys were open and it was you and Ingrid and Brian and your son. And there was this kind of opening and you weren't looking in on yourself. So that when you said you saw this little red head out of the corner of your eye and I could see that you were in that instant a welcoming place to be. So it's just I love that. It's so inspiring to me too, because I would say in general, I'm an extrovert, but you know, sometimes in big crowds, it's like all of a sudden I don't know where I belong and I'm feeling like insecure or whatever. And so you just like were an inspiration to me because the next time that I'm in a big room and I am thinking like, where do I belong? I'm going to say, what would Claire do? And I'll go find myself an open table who looks Yeah, go and find yourself some friendly looking people with an open body language that you can get into. Exactly. Aw, thank you. No, it was a lovely, lovely meetup. Before we finish off, what plans or aspirations do you think you have for the future? I mean, we know you don't want to be doing too much and overwhelm yourself, but do you have any thoughts of Yes. So for one thing, we are launching a new podcast from the Metaverse. So this is a completely different one than the one we're doing right now. It would be more of a panel setup. It's called Mindful Bites, and it's about how to use technology very purposefully, very mindfully in a healthy way for your mental health. Because we know that all these new things used incorrectly can I like the idea of the mindful elements of it and because it's not going away, we need to be able to mindfully use it and protect ourselves as we use it. But speaking of the tech element, you can listen to these podcasts. You don't have to be in the metaverse. You can listen to Brian and Shawna's podcasts on your normal podcast app, which I have done. So I have listened to them, just not been in Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. Yeah. That's an important thing to point out. All of them. We do the replays on normal podcast platforms. Yes. Thank you for saying that. Um, and then the only other future plan I have is to finish this book. I need There is not a time. I'm trying to organize my schedule better so that I actually have some free time for writing. But yeah, I'm not going to set an actual time. I just want to set writing time every week that I will not schedule over. That's my goal now. And then as long as it takes to write it is fine with even what I have written now. So I think I have eight chapters written right now. The main reason why I want to do it is, you know, I mentioned that I feel like I have something to say about this, but also I want my son and his children and the children after him to know who I was because I lost my dad in 2021. And I find so many things now that I think, I wish I could ask him about that. Why didn't I ask him more questions? You know, because I looked at him as my dad and not as a real person. And there's so much that now I wish I would have done a better job of knowing who he really was, you know? So I don't want my family to ever have to feel like Oh, that's lovely. Really interesting. How can Oh, yes. I should have prepared this. Okay. You can find me on Facebook, Shawna Curee, this is how my name is spelled, S-H-A-W-N-A-C-U-R-E-E, or you can email me, and my email address is shauna at Yeah. I mean, I think I told you this before, but every show I would listen to of creativity found, I would think this is what I would tell Claire. This is what I would tell Claire. I reached out. I'm like, hey, can I pitch myself for an interview? Can I come and tell you stuff? And of course, I can't wait to interview you. Yes, we're going to have you on our podcast and Yeah, me too. Me too. Thank you so much, Shonda. It's been brilliant Thanks so much for listening to Creativity Found. I hope you enjoyed this episode and gained some value from it. 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