The Listening Eye with Ashton Rodenhiser

From self-doubting doodler to skilled graphic facilitator, embracing the messiness of creativity can lead to transformative experiences.  

Societal pressures initially deterred my guest Ashton Rodenhiser from pursuing the arts in higher education. Instead she went to community college and then on to a role working in parenting programs and prenatal support, followed by transitioning to family support, a facilitation role that Ashton especially enjoyed.
Ashton discovered graphic facilitation through a transformative one-day workshop, a pivotal moment that not only reignited her passion for creative expression, but also led to a career that seamlessly combines her skills in listening, facilitation, and visual communication. 

Throughout the conversation, Ashton reflects on the vital role of facilitation in helping others communicate their ideas, and how her experiences have shaped her current work, including her recent book, The Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting. 

With a focus on empowering educators to integrate visual note-taking into their classrooms, Ashton inspires listeners to rethink their creative potential and the value of listening and drawing as tools for learning.

Ashton discusses the importance of developing a visual vocabulary, emphasizing that anyone can learn to draw, even if they start from scratch.

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Researched, edited and produced by Claire Waite Brown
Music: Day Trips by Ketsa Undercover / Ketsa Creative Commons License Free Music Archive - Ketsa - Day Trips
Artworks: Emily Portnoi emilyportnoi.co.uk
Photo: Ella Pallet

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1:02

The fact I didn't go to like traditional university and I didn't follow a traditional path necessarily in that way because I went to community college instead. That in itself was a big deal to my friends and family. And so going to art school would have been like an even bigger jump than that. So he was the one that told me about a one day workshop about graphic facilitation and I had no idea what that was. I took that one day workshop and totally changed my life. When people say, oh, I could never do that and I'm like, well, I didn't know how to draw but people don't believe me and I'm like, no, I really didn't. Like I really had to start. So you almost want to embrace the messiness and the ugliness of drawings when you're starting and there's a lot of vulnerability. Hi, I'm Claire, founder of Creativity Found a community for creative learners and educators connecting adults who want to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them do so with workshops, courses, online events and kits. For this podcast, I chat with people who have found or refound their creativity as adults. We'll explore their childhood experiences of the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they now love, and consider the barriers they may have experienced between the two. We'll also explore what it is that people value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits and how their creative lives enrich their practical, necessary, everyday lives. This time I'm speaking with Ashton Rodenhiser. Hi Ashton, how are you? I'm doing so well. How are you doing, Claire? I'm very good, thank you. Tell me first of all how you like to get creative. Yeah, so I am a doodler at heart, really passionate about doodling and usually that's how I love to start. It's a very like non threatening way to be creative and I get to do it for a living. So it's a. It's a good time. Yeah, brilliant. We will hear more about all of that. What were your creative experiences like as a youngster at home and in education? Yeah, so I consider myself a bit of a dabbler. So I've tried many things, sometimes for a day, a week, a month, a year. But I really love jumping around to a lot of different things and very self taught. I was like cross stitching when I was 10. I got really into knitting when I was a teenager and felting and the only thing that I have like any sort of formal lessons or education on is music. Different Instruments and things. But I've always really loved just sort of exploring different mediums and seeing sort of what I like about it at the time and giving myself permission to move on from it if it was something that wasn't really, you know, bringing me joy anymore, if I wanted to try something new or different. Yeah, perfect. Moving on and trying something else. It's something we talk about quite a bit. Usually when you get a bit grown up and you think, I should try something and then I should stick with it. Yeah, yeah. Well, a few years back, I sort of learned about this idea of, like, the sunk cost bias. And that's kind of when you start doing something and then you kind of have to convince yourself to keep doing it because you've done it. You've invested a lot of time, energy, and money. The example I always give is, like, people who go to university and they drop out when they're like, 90% done instead. You know, that's kind of going against the sun cost bias because most people think, well, it's only 10%, just finish it, but you could have, like, done a whole bunch of other stuff in that 10% of time, like, and find what you really wanted to do instead. So, yeah, we. We tend to kind of shame ourselves if we're like, oh, well, we started down this path, we might as well continue. And yeah, when I kind of learned about that bias, I was like, okay, good. It's a good permission to give yourself. And maybe it means you got, like, a closet full of supplies that you're never going to use and you can give away to somebody someday. And, like, that's okay. Yeah, sometimes we kind of shame ourselves into, you know, we started down a path and just because we, you know, invested a lot into it that we feel like we need to stick with it. And that's not the case. Yeah, yeah, yeah, perfect. Speaking of a path, when you were going through education, did you excel at something? Did you have a particular way that you were directing yourself for a future career? How did that kind of pan out? Yeah, so I think I have a bit of a very, like, untraditional path. I got good grades. I did the thing. I probably could have got into lots of different universities, but I just didn't know what I wanted to do. I really felt a lot of pressure trying to figure out what I want to be for the rest of my life. And the only thing that I really wanted to be was a mother. So I sort of headed down a path of early childhood education because I figured. Figured it would be a transferable skill. So when I became a mom that I would be like, oh, like I know kids and how to raise them, quote unquote, properly, which is such a joke. And that's a whole other side tangent. But you're almost like your own worst enemy because you know better. But yeah, so I, I think secretly, like looking back now, I could have. Would have pursued something creative, but it was just, I'm sure, like lots of the listeners here, it just was not a path that was even an option because there was just so much negative rhetoric in my family, my community, of those kids that go to art school and they don't have jobs, you know, so I really sort of fell into that. Unfortunately, the fact I didn't go to like traditional university and I didn't follow a traditional path necessarily in that way because I went to community college instead. That and it's was a big deal to my friends and family. And so going to art school would have been like an even bigger jump than that. So. Yeah. So unfortunately, like, I wish I would have listened to that little voice in the back of my mind saying, like, you could go and pursue something creative, you know, a formal education setting. But it just. I let those voices kind of get the better of me and the stories that people told around me. Yeah, yeah, I completely understand. It happens a lot. And it's a very. There's a lot going on at that time anyway to be making decisions for their life. It is absolutely. You know, and I. My kids aren't quite that age yet. They're still pretty little. But you know, there we put so much pressure and I think, I don't know if this stat is true, but I heard at some point that people have on average like seven careers in their lifetime. So asking children, what do you want to be when you grow up? Is kind of a joke. You should be like, what seven things do you think you might want to do in exchange for money? Yeah. So I get a little like triggered when people ask my kids that question. They're fine. They don't need to have this figured out. Yeah. And don't grow them up too soon as well. Yeah, yeah. With education then, did that mean you went on to be a teacher or work in schools? What did you do? Yeah, so the program I took was a two year program. And I remember a lot of people leave that program and work in childcare. And I remember being there on my, literally my last day of school and being like, I don't want to work in a childcare setting. I don't know what I just did. I just wasted two years of my life because I just wasn't a fan of sort of like how the childcare settings were sort of set up and didn't have like the greatest experiences unfortunately and the ones that I had to go and do practicum, you know, time in. And so I moved to the city. I was in the, it was in the country. And I moved to the this city because I had a desire of maybe going and doing sign language interpretation. So I was like, well, I need a job, I have no money, I'm eating oatmeal every day. So I went and you know, started applying to different places and I ended up getting a short term position that ended up lasting four years at a nonprofit family resource center. So the way that they're set up, at least where here I am in Canada, it's programming for parents and children, like playgroups and parenting programs and prenatal supports and there was like a small food bank kind of attached to it. And the first two years I was there I worked in child development. So like working with the kids mostly in my last two years I was there I transitioned into family support worker. So I did more facilitation and working with parents. And that's where I was sort of like entered into really this beginning of facilitation and really loving how as a facilitator you're not the expert necessarily, you're not like a teacher where you're like, here's a bunch of information I'm going to tell you that you will learn. As a facilitator it's really about asking questions, pulling folks own wisdom out and showcasing it to them and trusting they already have the answers right. So really loved the opportunity to be introduced into that world. Now I did take sign language night classes. I didn't end up doing interpretation, but I did do all the prerequisites to get into it. But I decided that after I really started into the world of facilitation, that that was something that I wanted to pursue more of. And the only reason why I left that job was because I wanted to move back to the country. Four years in the city was enough for me. I wanted to move back to the country and it didn't make sense for me to drive to the city every day. So I just started seeking out opportun for facilitation and ended up doing like a lot of volunteer work and meeting other facilitators in my very small community. It's not very many of us, so. Yeah, but you were able to find things to do there in that field or were you sharing that field with having to do other things job wise? Yeah, I kind of did a little bit. I did a little bit of childcare. I kind of was like a roaming childcare person. I go to different people's houses and it was actually really lovely. I did work in a childcare setting for like six months and then I say they broke. It was. It was not a great experience. And then I ended up kind of working with other families and things, which was really great. And in my volunteer work kind of introduced me into different opportunities. And a facilitator friend, he was the one that told me about a one day workshop about graphic facilitation and I had no idea what that was. I took that one day workshop and totally changed my life. And that was back in late 2013. Brilliant. So tell us then, what does that mean? What did the course actually involve? Oh, my gosh. The course in itself, you know, it's really about like, here's how you draw, like glorified stick people. It was very rudimentary. It was actually called Graphic Fundamentals and really about how to take facilitation skills and match them with visual skills. So it's really about the listening and the thinking that you already have as a facilitator and adding visuals into the mix to help people, you know, see their own words, not just feed it back to them in words, but now they can see what it is that they just shared and connect with it on a different level. And because most people think in pictures and they like to learn through pictures, it resonates with a lot of people in the room. I really felt like it was this beautiful coming together of this facilitation world that I really love working with people, helping people find their voice and communicate their own ideas. That sort of world, plus the artsy world that I, you know, like I said, sort of secretly thought, oh, maybe I could pursue this art thing at some point. I don't know, like. And it was really a beautiful blend between the two because it was like a conduit, like an opportunity to be like, hey, you can be creative in this way. You can still help people in this way and connect to information and help people communicate while also adding this whole, like, creative lens to it. So at that point, I really started playing around with it for about a year or so and then decided that I was going to leave facilitation because I really wanted to learn how to do this graphic facilitation really, really well. So I decided if I want to learn how to do it really well, I'm going to have to really sink my teeth in and do it properly. Yeah. That was over 10 years ago now, which is pretty wild to say. Yeah. In listening to your story and I had. We hadn't spoken about the sign language before, but it's the same thing. You're communicating words with pictures, and if you're doing the sign language, you'll be communicating words with. I'm moving my hands around now. Of course. Yes. No, with movement of the body and the parallels of that. But also what I'm spotting is that you found by chance things that you loved. So going into the education, but then getting you to the facilitating and how much you love that, and then to the interpreting and the way it's all around, the way that your brain works and the things you want to do, it has come to you. I'm not quite sure how many careers you're on there, but there's certainly. There's a couple there. I picked strawberries for my first job. I was a mascot. I was a camp counselor. I was a whole lot of empathy things. A festival organizer. Yes. So I. Yeah. And actually it was years. It was years after that that I actually connected the dots. I was like, this is really fascinating because there's like the. The facilitation, the sign language, and then even like, working with kids. And the. What it is that I do now, it's all communication in different formats. And it. It took me a while to realize, like, oh, that's the common thread through my life. And I really felt a lot of turmoil when I was in high school because I just wanted to help people, but I didn't know what that looked like. And in my high school brain and what was presented to me at the time was if you want to help people, like medical field. And I'm like, that's not for me. Good for you. For all the people who can do that. And I'm very grateful for you, but I can't. That's not for me. And so, you know, really looking back at it, it makes me feel very, like, brings me a lot of joy that I do help people communicate in this way. Like, I. I did reach that goal when I was a kid just wanting to help people, but I just didn't know what that looked like. And I just had such a limited view on it at the time, unfortunately, that I didn't know there was just so many opportunities, and they just sort of, like you said, the synchronicities of them just sort of happened. Like, I would. If I never would have done that, then I wouldn't have learned about facilitation, then I never would have learned about graphic facilitation and so on and so on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Did you have to learn to draw? You said at the beginning the course was like stick figures. Yeah. And you're now concentrating on it more in your timeline. Does that mean you're learning to draw? And what is the difference between drawing and drawing what people are saying to communicate and to make a memory of what's being said? Yeah, great question. So even though I tried out a lot of mediums when I was younger, I didn't actually draw a whole lot, to be honest with you. I did more. Like if I was painting, I was like abstract or very, like folk art, but, you know, not really drawing drawing. So I did not tell people for a very, very, very long time that I didn't know how to draw. I just sort of faked it until I make it, to be honest with you, those first few years, and just drew what I could and just ended up drawing the same stuff over and over again. And that's what I teach now, people, is, you know, build up some visuals that, you know how to draw that can also represent many, many things. Like a light bulb was something I was like, okay, I can draw a light bulb. I can do that. And I'm just going to put it on everything that I do because I know how to draw it. Let's just put it in the place where, you know, someone had a really good idea or we really like the biggest take home. Like, I always just kind of throw it in those areas of the graphic. But, yeah, I had to, you know, luckily, I entered this, the world of it, with listening and thinking skills already. You know, of course it's always developing, but I had a good sense of listening and being able to synthesize information, to feed it back in words. So then when I moved into this field, I had to really beef up and learn kind of from scratch drawing skills. It is an interesting world of graphic facilitation or visual thinking. There's so many words for it, but people enter it in so many different ways. Some people who enter it more from an art perspective, they seem to be more challenged with the listening and thinking part. Right. Whereas I had that part. So I had to really beef up the graphics. So even though I've been doing for 10 years. There's people that I know that have been doing it for way shorter time than me and their work looks so beautiful because they really had those skills kind of coming into it. But at the end of the day, it's really about reflecting to a group or a conference or what have you, the information that came from that. So beauty is kind of a byproduct in my opinion. Sometimes conversations are messy, so the visual is messy. That's just the nature of how it goes. But it's fun because a lot of people have never seen it before and never experienced it. It's fun to kind of blow people's minds when you can do it like live in real time and see it unfold. Yeah, yeah. And what do you think the benefits are for the viewer then? Graphic, visual, note taking over writing and reading words. So I have a very pre and post Covid story, like a lot of people. Right. So pre Covid, I was 100% in person and I have to mention that for a reason. And I'll get into it in a minute. But now I am starting to get more in person and I'm just a little bit more picky on in person work these days. But I do a lot virtually so people can see my drawing unfold on their screen alongside a speaker or a conversation or what have you. But I wanted to mention that because there's something really magical about being in person. In particular because I'm drawing very large, so usually 3 to 4ft wide by 8, 10, 15, I don't know, however long it needs to be. I think I did one a few weeks ago and ended up being 18ft on for a two day conversation. So the largeness of it is important to mention because when you're sitting there and you're having a conversation or you're listening to a speaker or what have you, if you look over to the graphic and because it's all live in real time, I'm really trying to keep pace with what's happening. They hear it, they look over, they see it. It confirms what they've just heard. Right. So it like solidifies. I love working with people who care about the learning and the memory retention and the engagement of the people in the room. Because then they can kind of, like I said, look at it and go, oh, right, that's what they just said. It allows them to see connections between things that maybe they hadn't seen. Because that's my job. My job is to help make the connections. So if someone said something at the end of the day, and then someone else said it the middle of the day, and someone said it at the end of the day, it's going to be represented as altogether as something very important. People might not have realized how important maybe those comments were. But because I'm hyper listening to everything, I can make those connections for people so they can come up and go, oh, my gosh, that person said that thing. And then that person said that thing. Right. So it's helping them, like, make those connections and create this visual representation to have them really engage with it in the moment. But then also have this record that now you can look at after the meeting or print it off and put it in your cubicle or what have you and say, right, that was our meeting, and this is what was said, and this is what we committed to, or this is what we need to work on or what have you. Instead of the opposite, which is usually a written report, which is not overly accessible. How many times we put reports in drawers and never see them again. Right. We don't. It's not a visual cue to say, oh, right, we were supposed to do this work, or this is what our focus is over the next six months, or what have you. Anyways, I'll pause there. Yeah. Now I can really see how the previous listening, understanding, facilitating, recommunicating skills are super, super important in this. In order that you're going to pick up the things and move them around and put them in a place that it all makes sense at the end, because you don't know what's happening at the beginning, what's going to happen at the end. And then you've got, like, this big picture that kind of explains everything. So I really understand the importance of those skills rather than just drawing, for example. So when you start to take this more seriously, and I'm not quite sure where the COVID thing comes in, but how. How did you then approach people? I don't know to say look, because I'm sure there are not very many people that know that this is being done. So how did you get out there into the working world? How did you get gigs, so to speak? Yeah. What's your confidence like around doing that as well? Oh, my gosh. How much time do we have? I could talk about just this question for, like, an hour. Okay, I'll try to synthesize it like a good little graphic facilitator would I. You know, I learned this was a thing in late 2013. You know, I had a little kid, then I had another kid, and I Went to a conference in summer of 2015. So I had been, you know, doing it kind of here and there and just sort of playing around with it for about two years at that point. I went to this conference with people who do this work very specifically and gather all around from all around the world. And I went to that conference seven months pregnant, and I was like, okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to make a decision at the end of this conference. I'm going to go, is this just something fun I'm going to do as like a side hustle? I don't even know side hustle was even a conversation back then, but now it would be considered a side hustle. You know, when my facilitator friends ask me and I'll do it cool, or do I want to, like, go all in on this thing? Um, so I attended all the, like, little businessy workshops that they had and tried to have conversations with people who had been doing it for a long time and was very intimidating. I was absolutely terrified the whole time. But obviously you know the answer to that question at the end. So after I had my second and he was about a year old, I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to try to create a proper business. Because up until that point, those first 3ish years, like, I didn't really have a business. I kind of had an I. I created a business name in 2014, but I wasn't telling anybody. I was, you know, open for. For gigs and things like that. So, yeah, it was like late 2016, early 2017, I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to not be secret business anymore. I'm a. I'm going to go all in on this. And two things that I really did, unfortunately, the work is considered an experienced good. You have to experience the value of it to understand the value of it. So I got to tell you about this all day long, and you can go, yeah, I can kind of get the value. But until you're in the room with me and you see your own ideas and you have that, like, deep connection to it, it's a. That's a hard thing to sell, man. It is very hard to sell. So, so I started doing a little bit of putting myself in situations on my community where I would show up in front of, like, groups of people. So like entrepreneur groups, their community gatherings. I would just throw up paper on the wa and do it. And then, of course, people would come over to me, that's where I started getting some, like, larger organizations in the community who could pay for something like that because they saw it and they understand it, even if they can't articulate, they know that they're connected. And, like, the number one thing that people say to me at events is, oh, I love this, because I'm a visual learner. And a lot of times we don't lean in on those. You know, learning styles technically are debunked, but people still relate to them. So I mention them, but I always with the asterisks that technically they're debunked, but people still, you know, have a connection to how they like to learn. Right. So that was one, just trying to show up and be in spaces where people would experience it. And of course, I didn't want to volunteer my time too much, but, like, I tried to be kind of picky about where I showed up. And two, was just telling people, honestly, I would contact conferences, a lot of cold emails, to be honest with you. And that worked very successfully for me for a very, very long time. And I took the foot off the gas when I started getting really busy in, like, 2018, 2019. Then when Covid happened and I had to move everything online, I just, like, well, cold pitching worked in the past. Let's do it again. So I just started sending, you know, and half of my work from 2020 came from just cold outreach being like, hey, I heard you moved your event online. I do this thing. People would have a whole different level of engagement, because at that time, zoom fatigue was starting to become a term. Right? Yeah. I'm like, you know, you can combat that by people being able to engage with your information in this way. And I actually made more money in 2020 than I did in 2019, surprisingly enough, just by paddle to the metal. And do I love sending cold emails? No, it's not fun. You always, like, have this little worry that someone's going to yell at you. How many times have people yelled at me in email? Very few. Very few. It has happened, but very, very, very few. Right. So most of the time, people just don't respond. Or they respond and say, yeah, let's hop on a call and talk about what this might look like for us. So it was just about kind of putting myself in uncomfortable situations and experiencing a lot of rejection those first few years, because every time I get on a sales call, I'd be, like, sweating, just, like sweating so bad, terrified to talk to people. But I'm glad I sort of Muddled through. I feel like I'm kind of on the other side of that now. I think when you get experience in the value of and you really, really embody the value of your work in this way, the rejections don't really hurt so much. Because you're like, I know that any event that brings me in, the people are really going to love it and appreciate it because that's all I've ever gotten from feedback. The attendees love it. The speakers feel special. Now, if someone chooses not to work with me for whatever reason, it doesn't hurt like it used to, because I know from just years of experience at this point that everybody really, you know, resonates with it. So it's more a case of them not understanding what value you can bring. Not that you're rubbish or anything like that. Yeah. And it is hard to be a creative entrepreneur in that perspective because you are start putting your creativity on the line. Those rejections, those first few years, I think I had a really hard time separating the creative from the work, from the client, from the business. Some of my friends sort of joke that I had. I'm this like, sliding scale. I'm like the creative and then I'm the business owner and I'm like somewhere in between at any moment. Like, sometimes I'm like, all right, well, now it's time to do the creative work and let's do it. And then I slide to the other side to be like, all right, well, I'm not doing. If you don't sign this contract, you have to sort of put your business hat on and be able to be really flexible in that. That scale. Because if you aren't and you're too much in the creative side, then you're potentially put yourself at a lot of risk for getting taken advantage of or not being paid properly or what have you. Right. So those first few years was really about trying to figure out that balance and where am I fitting at any given point of time? Because it is, like, important to be flexible in that scale and not live too far in one end or the other. That's a very valuable learning in itself because, I mean, we often talk about balance when creative activities become your business. And it sounds like you've got yourself to a good place with regards to still being able to get the joy from the creativity and make the business work as well. Exactly, yeah. Moving on. Tell me about your book and your teaching. Oh, yes. Putting this book together, the Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting was really. It came from a Lot of. Especially being in person. People being like, oh, I like really relating to this way of working. But them saying like, oh, I wish you could come to every meeting I have, or, oh, I'd love to learn how to do this, or, you know, but people not believing that they're creative enough. So that's where I started to be more transparent in my lack of drawing skills. When I first started, when people say, oh, I could never do that. And I'm like, well, I didn't know how to draw, but people don't believe me. And I'm like, no, I really didn't. Like, I really had to start. So when people say, oh, I could never do that, I'm like, that's totally rubbish. Because you absolutely can. Because I had to start. I really felt like from ground zero, from drawing perspective, right? And that's what people see. So you can sneak in the listening and the thinking stuff, but people want to learn the drawing thing. So when I was putting the Beginner's Guide to sketchnoting book together. Now, sketchnoting is a popularized term that came out about 11 years ago. A guy named Mike Rhodey kind of coined it, but it's still with all in the same realm. It's just a term that is used. I actually really love visual note taking as a term as well. Visual note taking or sketchnoting is more so learning this skill for yourself so you could take your own notes and. Or maybe like, you could incorporate it into your work if you wanted to. You know, it's. It's all very similar skill set. It's just a matter of how it's applied. Right. So when I was putting the book together, I really felt like there was something missing in the marketplace, but I really felt like there was a true beginner book missing. We see all these beautiful examples of people who've been doing it forever. But what does it look like to start as a true beginner? So, like, the first thing other than letters, we talk about letters first. After letters, we just talk about lines and drawing lines. And why do you draw a line and how do you draw a line? I think most people can get behind. I can draw a line. Doesn't even have to be a straight line. You can draw a straight line, but it doesn't even have to be a straight line. It can be a wonky, wiggly, squiggly line. Right. So it's been a really fun journey to kind of be walking people through this. This process. And when I was writing the book, I did multiple rounds of beta reading and had, I think, over 80 people read different versions of it and get a lot of feedback. So it felt like when I first started writing, I didn't even have, like, a publishing date in mind because I wanted to take the time to make sure that I incorporated. I ended up having over, like, 1500 comments of feedback. Things I thought were second nature was not right. I had to handhold more than I thought I needed to. And there was things that were, like. There was a whole chunks of things that were missing. I. I ended up rewriting a whole chapter right before the publishing day because I just felt like it wasn't quite right. Yeah, it was a really kind of beautiful process. And, like, I really love being a cheerleader and I really love supporting people. And I'm used to do in person workshops a lot more before COVID and I was really missing that and going back to sort of my facilitation roots. I really wanted to kind of see what I could put together to support people. If you pick up the book and you're like, oh, I really want to learn how to do this. Well, that's when I launched sketchnote School. It's like an online community where people can come and hang out and share their work and ask questions. And we do live workshops and doodle jams, and it's just a fun time. And people are in there from all different backgrounds, all different skill levels. The beginners are sort of what inspired me to start the community. But there's certainly some people in there that are just as advanced as myself, but. But they just want a place to be and support and connect with each other in, like, a safe and supportive virtual environment, which is really fun. It does sound fun. Just going back to learning to draw. And you're the. I'll say the third. I'm not quite sure when this episode's going out, but certainly the third at the point of recording of guests I've had who are very big on saying that you can learn to draw. One of them is Joanne Robinson and one is Bianca Girola, who both learn to draw and now teach other people to draw and that they can learn to draw and often starting with a line as well as you. I like that. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, obviously there's something to it. There's something to it. Yeah, exactly. It's like taking away the hesitancy. So when you're starting with a line or I'm sure the beautiful ways that these other two people teach it in their way, it's taking Away the hesitancy and drawing in a non threatening environment. So that when you do, if you do want to do it live, you don't always like, I have lots of people in the community that will not do it live, but they'll listen to something, take regular notes, and then create a sketchnote from it as part of their own personal learning or their study notes or what have you. But the trick is to build up your visual vocabulary of things that you already know how to draw. Right. So we like start with like little star, little box people, and then you can like build from there if you want, but you already know how to draw the little star person. When someone says especially like a complex word like vision or community, you're like, ah, ding, ding, ding. I already know how to draw that. And you just do it without even like worrying too much about it. You don't put a whole bunch of pressure on it. So if you can start with icons and things that are easy to draw, that have multiple meanings, that's where I love to sort of kind of focus in when people are getting started. Yeah, that's such a good idea. I used to do improv classes. Well, I used to do drama classes and we had some really good improvisation. And one of the people said, how do you come up with the ideas? And they said they had the same thing. They practice so much that they have ideas for scenarios all in their head already. And some of the scenarios are different scenarios, but you can use the same symbol, so to speak, to represent that, that scenario. So that's built, like you said, your visual vocabulary. Yeah, so that's one of those really useful tips that just wouldn't come naturally to people. First coming to this, this role. Yeah, yeah. There's obviously some magic to it, but there's an incredible amount of practice and it is like learning another language. It's not straight, you know, translation. Like it would be like words or sign language. It's not like this is exactly what they said. You're doing a little bit more synthesizing and thinking about what you're hearing and trying to make those connections. But if you have your visual vocabulary in your mind, so of a bunch of images and things you already know how to draw. It gives you more head space to be able to listen and think. So instead of thinking, oh goodness, what do I draw for vision? You're not even thinking about that. You just draw a little telescope or little glasses or a little magnifying glass or whatever it is you want to draw for vision. Yeah. And it Frees up your mental capacity to be able to listen and think. Because at the point you're thinking, oh, what should I draw? You're missing what's been said next, and then you try to catch up. Yeah, exactly. You know, so sometimes, like for me, now that I've been doing it for so long, I just, like, draw the same stuff over and over again. So one thing that I try to challenge myself is like, what's a way that I've never drawn vision before? Those are the kind of unique challenges that I can give myself and really just always be expanding my vision vocabulary so I don't kind of get stuck in a rut. And, you know, the client or the person, they don't know that I'm doing that. But I need to do that for my own kind of creative challenges so that I don't kind of get just stuck drawing the same stuff over and over again. Yeah, brilliant. What thoughts or plans or aspirations do you have for yourself going forward into the future, near or far? Yeah, well, I'm really doubling down on sketchnote School. It's really been my primary focus for this year, and I want to. I really want to invest a lot of time, energy and space into supporting people in this way. Just kind of learning how to even create and sustain an online community in itself is like a whole learning. But one thing that I have been really kind of working behind the scenes on is sort of a branch of sketchnote School that specifically supports educators and teachers, upper elementary and high school. Because I feel like this way of taking notes could be wildly beneficial to students in school. And we've done our students a grave disservice by not teaching them multiple ways to capture information. And I've noticed this in my own children. So my oldest, she's in grade five. She's 11, and she's just starting to learn note taking now. But in the last, like, year or two, they really. You use drawings a lot to support your writing because you don't know how to write yet. But then there's this hard transition, at least for me, what I've experienced with my kids so far that no, no, get rid of the drawings. You're only going to write now. So if we can, around that age where they're starting to learn note taking and before they totally take out drawing. Because then when you start to take out drawing and you're learning, then that's when students start to go, well, I can't draw. And I'm like, but you could, though. You just weren't Given the opportunities anymore to do it in a way that will support your learning or your writing or what have you, right? So if we can say you could take notes in just words, and that's fine if that supports the way that you want to do it. But you could also do it with words and pictures. Because the thing with sketchnoting and this type of work, the words are still very important, right. It's not common that you're going to have a whole drawing that's just drawings and no words. Like the information and the content is still wildly important. And you can create a beautiful sketchnote without even drawings, but just using like boxes and lines and things like that and color to kind of bring it to life without even like icons or anything. Right. So anyways, backing up five steps, steps, that is something that I sort of have a vision for, moving forward is like, how can we infiltrate a little bit of and get some teacher advocates on board to get them comfortable? Because what I'm experienced with some teachers I'm working with currently to kind of build up some case studies is the teachers have to get comfortable with bad drawing. I have a teacher friend, and luckily she's like, she gets it. She's like, I'm just going to draw a bad drawing and then the kids will go, oh, well, she drew a quote, unquote, bad drawing. So I can draw badly too. Even just getting teachers comfortable with drawing because you don't want them to almost get too good at it before they start teaching it to their students, because then their drawings are going to be really beautiful and then the students are going to go, well, I can't do it because my drawings aren't as nice. So you almost want to embrace the messiness and the ugliness of drawings when you're starting. And there's. That's a lot of vulnerability to get teachers to do that. Anyways, my vision sort of moving forward in the next little while is what would this look like to get it into the hands of teachers, of students, and what can, you know, I do to kind of support them and how can I be a bridge to connect them to other teachers doing it? So I'm putting together a little like virtual free summit for teachers and schools. And it's going to be very important for me to get other teachers to come and speak and tell how they use it in their classrooms so that it gives them practical examples of how they're actually doing it. Examples of students work. It's just a matter of teachers giving kids permission to capture in this way and not getting in trouble for doodling in the classroom. And teachers incorporated into their lesson plans as part of their practical learning. Right now I'm looking for advocates, teachers who are going to also help me spread the word about this to make it affordable, to make it mainstream. Right. I really need to get other teachers on board who are really excited about it and help spread the word. Right? Yeah, yeah. No, brilliant. Very much. Good luck with that. How can people connect with you? Yeah. So sketchnote School is kind of where you can find me everywhere. Sketchnote School on Instagram. Instagram's kind of the place I hang out the most these days, so that's a good place to find me. Sketchnote School is my website. Sketchnote School on YouTube. Kind of sketchnote school everywhere. If you're kind of curious about my professional work as like a graphic facilitator, my parent company is Mind's Eye Creative. So mindseyecreative, ca anything. Mind's Eye Creative. Is that that world? Yeah. Perfect. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. Yeah, no problem. It was like such a great opportunity and thanks for it, Claire. I really appreciate it. You're very welcome. Thanks so much for listening to Creativity Found. I hope you enjoyed this episode and gained some value from it. 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