Tina Wells – T'ai Chi Chih in times of need

There is energy in everything.
In this episode my guest Tina Wells chats about her journey to finding emotional relief and mental wellbeing, along the way showcasing various practices and creative outlets that foster joy and reduce stress.
Tina has always had a deep appreciation for nature and science – including a fascination with energy bonds, organic matter and the interconnectedness of living organisms – leading to a career as an ecologist and surveying butterflies in Bristol (among other roles!).
During a move to San Francisco with her husband and young son, Tina discovered the mental-health benefits of T'ai Chi Chih, which has helped her to overcome personal challenges including anxiety and postnatal depression. Tina went on to train in this moving form of meditation and now leads her own group sessions, focusing on stress relief through movement and breathing techniques.

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Researched, edited and produced by Claire Waite Brown
Music: Day Trips by Ketsa Undercover / Ketsa Creative Commons License Free Music Archive - Ketsa - Day Trips
Artworks: Emily Portnoi emilyportnoi.co.uk
Photo: Ella Pallet

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Chapters

• 9:57 Science and ecology
• 11:59 The impact of family dynamics on emotional expression
• 18:52 Discovering T'ai Chi and its benefits
• 23:30 Navigating mental health challenges
• 32:30 Spreading awareness

Transcript

Tina Wells: 0:38

No conflict was allowed, so we were the happy family, which is sort of you'd imagine a nice place to be. But actually for me, it dampened down any ability to express emotion. Chi we actually say that we love each other and that I miss you? I won't be able to tell you that and tell you I love you, you see. Well, my gosh. The reaction? I'd open this Pandora's box. I feel maybe I'm going down into that rabbit hole. I'm shutting down. The depression for me is that experience and it happens unfortunately quite quickly. So what I would say is that I feel that this technique for me helps me recover out of the rabbit hole quicker. Physiologically, they've done experiments to show that when people lengthen their out breath like this, the stress hormones go down. And that leaves space for joy to come in. Hi.

Claire Waite Brown: 1:38

I'm Claire, founder of Creativity Found, a community for creative learners and educators, connecting adults who want to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them do so with workshops, courses, online events, and kits. For this podcast, I chat with people who have found or refound their creativity as adults. We'll explore their childhood experiences of the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they now love, and consider the barriers they may have experienced between the 2. We'll also explore what it is that people value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits and how their creative lives enrich their practical, necessary everyday lives. For this episode, I'm chatting with Tina Wells. Hi, Tina. How are you?

Tina Wells: 2:31

I'm doing alright. Thanks. A bit of a croaky cough. So sorry Chi sound a little bit, bit but I'm fine. Thank you.

Claire Waite Brown: 2:36

Good. Good. Good. Good. Can you start by telling me how you tap into your sense of creativity?

Tina Wells: 2:43

I love knitting. It's something I learned well, actually, my mom didn't have much patience to teach me, but she was our most amazing knit knitter in the seventies when I was growing up. And she'd have a lovely friend from Wales come and they'd knit together and talk about all the gossip. You know, that was that was a good bit. Anyway, she wasn't that patient to teach me. But once I left home, I decided what's going to do. I'm gonna learn. I'm gonna teach myself. I've seen enough of it to know what was going on. And I do it every now and again. And I now I love doing little mini projects for my grand nephew. And then I love dance. Dance has been an important part of my life from when I was very young, doing ballet and then university days, jazz, and then salsa in the last, say, 20 years, saroque, even Samba in America. I learned Samba. The beauty of that art of dancing to music and letting myself go and really hearing the rhythm of the music just absorbs me totally. And I don't do enough of it. You've made reminded me. But but my other love is like the other end of the energy scale, which is Qigong, T'ai Chi, which is what I share now because it's extremely important for my own mental health. And the particular form that I found after I did many years of yoga training. I trained as a yoga for pregnancy teacher, and then I trained as a baby massage trainer. And then further down the line, we ended up living in California in 2008. And I was doing some more yoga styles, Korean yoga called dhan yoga, waking up this belly chakra, the dantian. And I felt started to feel energy between my hands. So I realized, even though I've done many years of yoga, that this was getting me more in touch with a feeling of energy. So I wanted to pursue it. And then I thought maybe T'ai Chih, it seems that they're moving slowly with awareness. So my own sense of creativity now is through sharing and doing it for my own mental health, but sharing it for others to really find a sense of peace. That is the bottom line with this practice. So, that's my creativity journey at the moment.

Claire Waite Brown: 5:05

Wonderful. You mentioned the knitting and mothers not lack of patience to teach you. But generally, when you were younger, were creative activities a big part of your life? Were they encouraged? And were they in any way a part of your projected trajectory through life and what you wanted to do when you grew up? Yeah.

Tina Wells: 5:27

I mean, the dancing was extremely close to my heart. My dad was a very good pianist just at home. You know, he he he loved it. So, I started to do ballet classes at the age of 7. And actually, the headmistress of that primary school happened to be an ex royal ballet dancer and suggested to my mum that I should, at 11, you know, or maybe earlier, go for trials for the Royal Ballet. And although that was an amazing thing, I was very protected. I lived in Liverpool. We didn't go to London. We did maybe for a show maybe now and again. But, you know, the thought of going, that was huge. So so I was quite glad that my mom said, oh, I don't think so. You know? And I was like, yeah. Maybe not. But but dance started, and it carried on through my whole life. So I was encouraged. And I did go into my early teens learning the different grades, etcetera. And as I said, you know, it led to my love of dance, which is still there because of the music, what it stirs in me. So as a child, the other aspect maybe was that I really noticed nature. I love flowers. And as as a little girl, I remember one of my mom's friends, the same one that came to knit Jean, she she took me down to we were quite close to a rail track, and there was this amazing white bellflower. And I absolutely remember this. I probably was we lived in Formby, and I was only maybe, 4, I reckon. I haven't started school. Anyway, I remember this white bellflower. And she said, don't touch it because it was deadly nightshade. But to me, it was like I'd seen something amazing. So I don't think my parents knew that in me, actually. But this awareness of nature and living things came to me quite strongly, and I was appreciating that I could feel the life in me. I was alive. And this is, like, at that age. I mean, that's very young. But the person next to me, I couldn't feel their aliveness, but they were walking around as well. So I didn't understand how I could feel me, not them. But there was the first little seed of curiosity about life. And so that was the important thing in thinking about my love of nature came there. I went on to study biology and became an ecologist through my Liverpool University focus. And butterfly surveys was the next thing in the an environmental record center in Bristol. But just returning to that energy awareness, when I was in my a levels and the chemistry teacher, I was at a technical college. He said this table used to be a living tree, and it was you know, it still is actually organic matter. It's no longer living in the ground. But if you think of it as it was as a tree, the organic matter that's in the tree and that's in us is the same elements. Carbon, nitrogen, I forgot my forgot my chemistry. But, you know Organic matter. Carbon is a key. Organic matter. And and he said, the difference the different forms that we see that are alive in the world are only different because of the way the elements that are all the same are held together by energy bonds. So this is the first time someone had said, I heard energy. And I thought, crumbs, that's the common denominator of all life. This energy is holding the same elements in that tree together as me, but in a different format, a different way of configuring it. Wow. That was a moment of like, okay. I'm seeing under the surface now. So and then the physics guy says, all organic matter will be destroyed. You know, we see things dying, and they disintegrate. But you can't destroy energy. So the energy that's in things will be transformed into other things. And then, of course, they talk about the cosmos and the stars and the universe. And I'm like, there's our energy again. And, actually, that makes total sense to me. So okay. So coming forward in time, I was interested in, very luckily, that energy side of life even before I got to America to learn this form of T'ai Chi.

Claire Waite Brown: 9:47

That's really interesting and insightful on your side getting into that feeling of energy even before you get to the Tai Chi and that style of energy. But tell me a bit more about the science because you were getting those from your science teachers, and then you said you were doing a science, studies at university. So tell me more about that time and what you were hoping or maybe thinking that would lead to if you even had those thoughts.

Tina Wells: 10:16

Yeah. Well, I was doing my degree in, oh, dear. 1978, I started my degree. And, and I loved the biology. I didn't know what it would lead to because in actual fact, in those days, there weren't the environmental jobs or the interest in, you know, the nature of things. But one of the courses which struck home very much for me was something called man's environment. And the lecturer was looking at the impact across the world, you know, how we all interconnect. So there's I I studied qualified in ecology, and the interconnectivity of things, you know, sort of goes back to the energy world in terms of we are all the same, actually, every living thing. And then also this man's environment looked at things like us humans and how, unfortunately, in the future, he said, the things that that sort of control our natural numbers in the world, he said, there may be, in the future, a major virus that goes across the world. So we were being told this in 1978, 79. Or you have another, god forbid, you know, another world war. There are things that happen in the world that regulate us and our our existence. So what I'm trying to say is although a lot of my biology learning was very grounding, it was very connected to nature, I qualified in the natural history side of it and then went on to work with the butterflies and the public. I was aware of the connection across the world and how these things can affect us. And, of course, we have just seen this with COVID.

Claire Waite Brown: 11:59

You told me that you went to America. And you've told me in the past T'ai your parents had gone to America. What was the, logistics around that?

Tina Wells: 12:08

Why did that happen? Parents, decided to emigrate. So I was about 20 6 when this happened. It had been taking some time. My dad had to retrain pretty well as a doctor even though he was already a specialist to actually practice in Texas. The reason they chose Texas is that my mom's sister had married a Texan in the 19 sixties. She missed her a lot. But we also had this, conflict within the family where my father was brought up Jewish. My mom was a Welsh Methodist girl, not particularly religious in that case. But for my father, his family hoped that he'd marry a Jewish girl. It didn't happen. And at that point, when my mom married my father, sort of like against my father's mom's wishes, it was really a struggle for them. So although this was never spoken about because we did we only talked about happy things. You know? Our day to day round the table as children was what the weather was like and what have you done today. Very nice present moment stuff, but, actually, no conflict was allowed. So we were the happy family, which is sort of you'd imagine a nice place to be. But actually for me, it dampened down any ability to express emotion. And the way I interpreted their nice way of thinking, saying, oh, we only want you to be happy, was that they don't want me to be sad. And if I showed any sadness, my mom would block it. Her blocking was, you're just fine. There's nothing wrong with you. These are her words. So there was no inquiries to Chi are you upset? No. No. No. Stop doing that. And I think later on, I realized because it was too painful for her. I was the eldest. I was the only girl. And I didn't know why I was being stopped. My emotion was being stopped. But I quite quickly stopped my emotion in in the negative side. Expressing your emotions through through tears is not actually negative, but, of course, that was what I heard. We didn't talk about the fact that they were going to live. They were emigrating. No one else I knew, parents were leaving. I mean, to me, it felt like my home, they're going into some black hole. I didn't know where they were going. But we didn't think about it until it happened. And they were going and they were going for the ship. And I was like I went into shock. I didn't know how to express that. The tears were coming. But, again, my mom was, you know, we're going. Stop it. Stop it. To her, it was hard, of course. And the interesting thing was Chi am sort of the one that raises the questions that she doesn't wanna hear. You know, I remember once we were on the way to see my grandma, and my mom was stiff again in the front of the car. And I suddenly said, because dad was in the training side of going to America, well, what's gonna happen when you go to America? What's gonna happen about grandma? What happens when she's really elderly? I, not we, because I'm the girl I'm gonna have to look after. And mom goes, oh, for heaven's sake, it's gonna be fine. You're gonna come on a lovely holiday. Stop it. Mhmm. So the usual thing. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Stop it. Stop it. So I stopped it. And but I knew underneath. So, you know, being a girl, very empathetic with my my parents. My brothers seem to not notice it. But I felt their feelings and this conflict between them. So, anyway, we weren't allowed to express it and off they went. And, and they came back for the first visit, coming back. I hadn't yet visited their new home. And I thought I'm just gonna ask them. Can we not just talk about the weather on the phone and, like, what you've done? Can we actually say that we love each other and that I miss you? I want to be able to tell you that and tell you I love you, you see. Well, my gosh. The reaction? I'd opened this Pandora's box and she was shouting and, like, I've done some said something awful. And I'm like, she said, you don't understand how hard it was when I lived in Wales and we had to walk 7 miles to school every day. And we were very poor. I said, I know this, ma'am. I know this. I know the this is not what I'm saying. But I didn't understand why. Well, she's not heard all I've said because we say we love each other. Anyway, my dad comes up, and he's the he's the lovely gentle doctor. And he comes up and he says, what seems to be the trouble? So so he sits down and mom says, just tell your father what you've just said. I said, well, I will. But please don't interrupt me because I think you've heard it wrong. So I said to dad, you know, it's really hard for me not to be able to say I love you. I want to be able to say I love you because I miss you, and you're a long way away. And all we talk about is the weather and what you've done. So so he goes, well, we thought now that you're 26 and you're married and you'd be okay. And I'm thinking, neither of them have got it. So I said, oh, it's alright. It's alright. Again, squash it down. Squash it down. Anyway, guess what happens, of course. I thought I've ruined my relationship with my mom. I thought that's it. It's completely intact as I don't know what I've said. But what I'd said, of course, had opened up her heart, which was some feelings of guilt, which I hadn't even realized was there. I had this deep sorrow of loss. For me, I was thinking, like, how many times will I see them before they die? And guess what? I wasn't wrong. My mom, 3 years later, was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She lived on for a couple of years. This moment where I expressed this allowed her to accept me wanting to help her during that ovarian cancer time. So we started to say we loved each other on the phone. It did actually happen, but it was a trauma. And the lovely thing was, awful that it was, when she she was discovered she had ovarian cancer, I said to her, I want to come and be with you when you go in for your first chemotherapy. And she said yes. And that now that wouldn't have happened. If I hadn't opened that box, she would have wanted to protect me from that. So this allowed us to come together. Out of trauma, that's what is a nice message, out of these terrible moments of shock and, like, oh my gosh, I've ruined the whole relationship, came a moving together of recognizing me actually, wanting to be helpful, and her not squashing that and not saying this is too much for you. You know? She didn't do that. So there we go. Happy day. Yeah.

Claire Waite Brown: 18:52

Eventually, it gets there. Tell me about your time in America and, your introduction to Chih Chi at that point.

Tina Wells: 19:03

Yeah. In, 2008, I with my husband and our little boy who was 7, off we go to live in San Francisco area because my husband's work gave him that opportunity. But I wasn't able to work. So I was very lucky to be able to try different forms of yoga, get really immersed in that sort of, yeah, hippie, oldie hip the old hippie tie still there. And, so there are loads of lovely things. So I went to a type of yoga, Korean style called dan yoga. And we were taught to plummel our belly area where the dan tien is a big energy center in Tai Chi. And so I started to feel the energy between our palms. We were encouraged to pummel it, feel the energy and expand it and contract it. And I thought, wow, this is more than my old yoga training and my own teaching in yoga for pregnancy and baby massage. It sorta connected me physically with the energy feeling. So I wanted more of that. So I looked around thinking T'ai Chih maybe would be do this or Chih. And I found a lovely English elderly lady, Wendy, teaching T'ai Chi Cha, it's called. It's a meditative form of Tai Chi, not martial art. Very simple. It's 19 moves and one pose. And the lovely professor of Albuquerque and a poet and an artist, a writer, he developed this after making some money in the stock exchange in New York, leaving his professor job at the university, and travelling across the far east to learn different forms of T'ai Chi. He'd seen a man recently even sparked this idea, a Japanese man, completely serene and calm in the midst of the crazy financial stock exchange. So Justin Stone, the American, approached him and asked him what he was doing. Like, what are you doing right now? And he said, well, in our culture, we learn to sort of block out and we can feel grounded. And we're we're able to stand in the midst of activity serenely. So Justin Stone just decided he wants to learn about this. And he sets off and goes across the far east and learns. So this is in the sixties seventies. He ended up in Japan and lived there for 10 years training to be a Tai Chi Shuang master. That's the form of Tai Chi you usually find in the west. He went back to Albuquerque after 10 years to teach Tai Chi Shuang. And there's 32 movements or there's a 108 movements, different forms. And the Americans in the university were going, Justin, we don't know about this. You've lived with this for 10 years. And he decided he needed to take the essence of many of the forms he'd learned to bring it into a simple form, but with the strong essence of what's un these practices. And that's what he created then. So although it seems simple and maybe it's non martial arts, so maybe the Tai Chi people will go, where's the history to this? Actually, he created something that was more manageable for us. And the mental health side for me was immediate. In my first class, it was like my mind is now down in the soles of the feet. So we anchor the mind in the soles of the feet. And in the philosophy of T'ai Chih, where the mind goes, the energy follows. So if you are very overwhelmed with excess energy, excess emotion, it is possible to draw it down to the ground with the mind. So this is the immediate relief I felt. Right at that point, I thought, I want to teach this one day. But I was really in the last 2 months of our time in America. So I just came home with a DVD to watch, how to do the movements. And there was one American teacher in the UK. I went to see her every now and again to practice and for her to correct my movements. And 3 years on, I went back after learning the sequence, went back for the teacher training. Now I have some of my students who are now teachers. So we're we're spreading it very slow, but it's it's spreading bit by bit.

Claire Waite Brown: 23:30

And what kind of things were you up against then? Because you said about how it really helped you mentally and the busyness of your mind. What kind of experiences were you in that you needed that at that time?

Tina Wells: 23:43

Postnatally, about 6 months after Jamie was born, I had my first experience of very severe depression. And this came and went, and it has still come and gone, by the way. I'm not cured, but I am using these things to help me recover. So when I went to America, my husband and and my little boy, dad had a very, very serious illness. He was staying with us. And, anyway, he survived amazingly. But after he went home, I tend to have a reaction to stress. I'm very good at the time. And then it's afterwards that it hits me. So the awareness of needing to learn skills to help myself manage this and also learn more about the brain, Chi knew quite a bit about that from CBT training and different sorts of trainings before we went to America. And then went into a deep depression again in America after dad had survived, thankfully, and gone back to Texas. And, yes, it's an interesting one because I'm working at the Oxfordshire Recovery College now. And then sometimes people say to me, oh my gosh. Will this stop my anxiety? You know, you're describing it and we're doing it, and I get it. And I said, look. You can try things, lots of things. Don't just focus on 1 maybe. And it helps me. But I do still, at times, find myself in depression or high anxiety, different aspects. So I never say this is the answer. But for me, it's the one thing I've stuck with. So all of these different trainings, yoga for pregnancy, baby massage was to help Jamie with bad eczema up to the age of 3. He was really ill. Actually, that plus, of course, the lack of sleep. The psychiatrist and the psychologist realized it's no wonder you're going into depression postnatally because of, bless him, tough times. And so I didn't really accept it in myself then. But interesting, hypnotherapy was the first skill and intervention that helped me recover in the very early days. And this form of T'ai Chi, this meditative practice, is the thing that's so ingrained now because if you teach it, you do it. So I knew by teaching it, there, I'm sharing it, which is an amazing thing. But also Chi am making a practice for myself to keep as well as I can. And that's how I take it into my life.

Claire Waite Brown: 26:52

And when you teach it, I'm assuming you get the benefit, not not your benefit, but it's very nice for you, of seeing how your students react and what they gain from it. So what kind of things do you see from your students' point of view?

Tina Wells: 27:08

Sure. So particularly in the recovery college here in Oxfordshire, I see it there in group settings. So there's always 2 tutors. We're there to actually just facilitate conversation and learn these skills. So what I see in people, because they a lot of them, amazingly, have even got into the room. They've got out of bed. They've managed to get out the door, and that can take some time. They've got to the college. And by the way, this is not referral for medics. They just join. They can join as students no matter where they are in their recovery from a mental struggle. So in front of me, I have people and they show their stress. You know, people are quite don't want to talk to anyone. You know, they're quite withdrawn. You see the tension in the body. Well, how amazing it is when I say well, lovely Chi tutor usually does the check. And we say, okay. How stressed do you feel now? This is really stress. This is nice and relaxed. So where are you? Before we do any of this T'ai chi chi Chih, where are you? And you don't have to show me. Just see in your mind where are you on that scale. And then we do some of it. And then we say, so where are you now? And then they decide where they are. Not everyone loves it. Some people find it challenging at that time, and they need to go away, maybe come back. And you know what I mean? But those who just, like, immediately benefit, they just it just dissolves away. They don't see it. But I'm looking on, and I see this, like, relief. Like, the tension stops. The shoulders are going down. I am guiding that. You know, I'm giving them sort of a bit of a body scan before we start. The main one of the main takeaways is not the movement is amazing, the rocking aspect of the movement. Because when the body rocks, the mind comes along for the ride. You're not telling them to sit still now, focusing on your breath, which if you're in a a state of trauma Chi be far too strong. So you're just saying we're gonna rock the body, gonna feel the ground. And rocking the body lulls the mind into a false sense of security so it doesn't resist as much. Now you can draw your mind to feel the ground. So it's a very informal way. And this reaction of reducing the stress in the body, I also enhance now between the movements. We take a pause. We breathe in through the nose. And then a nice long candle breath or a straw breath where you imagine breathing gently through a straw. Physiologically, they've done experiments to show that when people lengthen their out breath like this, the stress hormones go down. And that leaves space for joy to come in. Justin Stone called this joy through movement, this, style of T'ai Chi. And that's, I feel, happens T'ai we're reducing those stress hormones and we're taking them down visually with the mind coming down through the body, relaxing the body, and going down to feel the ground. So I see it in very many ways, and I get little glimmers of people telling me how it's changed their lives. So one girl came up to me and said sometime later, you've changed my life. My panic attacks are being controlled now by that long out breath. So anyone listening to this podcast who has got an exam coming up or, you know, just stressful interactions with people in their lives which, you know, you can't choose your family. I'm sorry. My family are lovely. But, you know, there are challenges in our lives. So, so, if you have a challenge happening, this grounding, bringing your brain your mind to feel the soles of the feet in your shoes or on the floor, and doing this without people knowing what you do. Breathing in through the nose and a nice slow out breath through the mouth, No one knows. But you know what? You are pausing and having a moment to know how to respond better rather than join the clash. You know? So so so I use it in that way, but I also use it when I feel maybe I'm going down into that rabbit hole. I'm shutting down. The depression for me is that experience, and it happens, unfortunately, quite quickly. So what I would say is that I feel that this technique for me helps me recover out of the rabbit hole quicker. And as someone said, I've been on a mindfulness now teacher training course this week to become a extra mindfulness teacher. That sort of awareness of knowing yourself, becoming aware, and allowing some days that you just sit on the couch and do nothing. And that sometimes is what you need. And rather than pushing against it and saying, I must be better. I must be the natural positive Tina that I am normally. Others around you and you yourself allowing for a bit of shutdown means that you don't prolong it. So I've learned that if nothing else.

Claire Waite Brown: 32:28

Yeah. Oh, brilliant. You mentioned there, more mindfulness. So generally, what are your plans or hopes for the future?

Tina Wells: 32:36

Yeah. I'm already teaching mindfulness present moment through the Tai Chi, present moment awareness, and this easy way into both mindfulness and meditation. But my future hopes are sharing it open in open air festivals. I do it, of course, in the recovery college as a sort of baseline. But I do it in hospitals. You know, they may have it be having well-being days, both for the staff and the patients, or in companies. So I love to apply it to different groups of people and make it relevant for them. But the underlying thing I'm sharing is these life skills, and I see it being so valuable to integrate with what I already do. So I'd love it to be more widely spread. I need to do more of what we're doing with you, Claire. This is the first time I've been on a podcast. I've been on the radio a little bit. I'm talking about energy of all things way back. But anyway, you know, I I need more of this sort of thing to get out there, maybe to do more myself on social media, to give more of these little moments that I've learned. And the love of nature probably will be the vehicle. Like, I'm doing forest bathing now. I've got a lovely garden room. And, and I've created a a Japanese garden in memory of Justin Stone doing the T'ai Chi Cha in Japan. And so, you know, I've got it here happening. But also, I really want to share it much more widely, share the things that I've learned alongside the actual skill of moving, rocking motion, feeling that.

Claire Waite Brown: 34:24

Yeah. Oh, super. In the vein of, spreading the word, how can people find you and connect with you?

Tina Wells: 34:34

Yeah. Lovely. Well, I do have a a Facebook page, and Chi know you'll you'll spell out T'ai Chi Chi for people, but the Facebook page is called Tai Chi Chi Oxford UK. You'll find little video clips, and you'll find information about maybe why to come and do this. And there, yeah, I'd be very happy to hear from you if you're interested. And I can tell you on there about the festivals that are coming up and different events. Perfect.

Claire Waite Brown: 35:02

Thank you very much, Tina. I've had a really, really lovely conversation with you today.

Tina Wells: 35:08

Thank you so much. It's been amazing. Thank you for the amazing questions. They're quite deep questions.

Claire Waite Brown: 35:15

You're welcome. Chi try. Brilliant. Thanks so much for listening to Creativity Found. I hope you enjoyed this episode and gained some value from it. If you did, perhaps you'd like to contribute a small monetary sign of appreciation, either by becoming a regular supporter from as little as $3 per month using the link in the show notes. Or if you are listening on a value for value enabled app, such as Fountain, Truefans, or Podverse, feel free to send a few sats my way. I also occasionally promote products that I personally use. So please use the affiliate link where relevant if you are buying from those fine companies. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it.