Creativity Found: finding creativity later in life
How does creativity benefit our lives as grown-ups?
I'm Claire, and I re-found my creativity after a time of almost crippling anxiety. Now I want to share the stories of other people who have found or re-found their creativity as adults, and hopefully inspire many more grown-ups to get creative.
I chat with my guests about their childhood experiences of creativity and the arts, how they came to the creative practices they now love, the barriers they had to overcome to start their creative re-awakening, and how what they do now benefits their whole lives.
Creativity Found: finding creativity later in life
Corrie Legge – the quiet reconnection
Corrie Legge was following Julia Cameron’s The Artist’s Way, and during reading deprivation week – which she expanded to include other external distractions such as TV and social media – was at a bit of a loose end, having put the children to bed at her babysitting job. This period of quiet reflection resulted in a flurry of writing, something that Corrie hadn’t done for many years, having been put off by other people’s comments in her school years.
Despite her creative inclinations as a child, Corrie found the pressure to achieve high grades often stifled her willingness to take risks in her writing.
Corrie studied biology at college, for some time with thoughts of entering the medical field, only to realize through an EMT ridealong that her sensitivity to others’ emotions made this not a good career choice. Instead, she found a unique way to merge her interests in acting and medicine by working as a standardized patient, helping to train a new generation of empathetic doctors.
The onset of the pandemic and the birth of her first child led Corrie to a full-time job that, while seemingly perfect on paper, left her creatively unfulfilled and emotionally drained. It was through revisiting The Artist’s Way once again – in particular Cameron’s thoughts on anger – that Corrie found the clarity and courage to leave her job and return to her true passions.
Today, Corrie balances her creative pursuits with family life, finding joy in screenwriting, exploring the world of children's books, and nurturing her acting career.
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Researched, edited and produced by Claire Waite Brown
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I was focused on making sure that I got the grade. Sometimes that meant that I didn't take the risks. And risk is so ingrained in creative work. It was so emotional to me that we were going to help people in some of their worst moments. I didn't feel like I had the time or energy to pursue any of my other creative outlets, even when I wasn't working, because it was all going into this job that was slowly becoming soul-sucking. I don't know why I keep forgetting how important acting and an acting community is to me as a human. Most importantly, this whole experience brought me back to writing. which Hi, I'm Claire, founder of Creativity Found, a community for creative learners and educators, connecting adults who want to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them do so with workshops, courses, online events and kits. For this podcast, I chat with people who have found or re-found their creativity as adults. We'll explore their childhood experiences of the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they now love, and consider the barriers they may have experienced between the two. We'll also explore what it is that people value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits. This time I'm speaking with Corrie Léger, whose life has variously revolved around writing, acting, biology and teaching, and even occasionally all at the same time. Hi Corrie, how are you? I'm good, how are you? I'm very well, thank you. Tell me please what your current creative passion Oh, that's such a big question because I consider myself a multi-passionate person and especially a creative multi-passionate person. So my biggest passion has always been acting in the creative sphere. I've been acting since I was little. You know that cliche, I've been acting since before I can remember. That's me. But I also, I'm a knitter, I'm a writer. Writing is something that I used to do so much as a kid and I fell away from for a little while. And I've, in the last few years, started to come back to in various capacities. And then on top of that, I direct, I do voiceover work. So there's Brilliant. You've already mentioned acting, writing. It sounds like creativity was encouraged for you as a youngster. Was that the case among the family, maybe Yeah, I was very fortunate in that my parents were always incredibly supportive of all of my creative whims. My mom and dad, growing up, I didn't view them as creatives themselves. My dad was an engineer. My mom is an entrepreneur. But the older I get, the more I realize that they were creative. They are creative in their own ways. Creativity doesn't just look like An artist, you know, in the normal way that we think of artists, a painter, a sculptor, an actor, a writer, it can look like a creator literally creating new things, which is what my dad did with his engineering work and creating new business ventures as my mom does as an entrepreneur. So I grew up watching them be role models for me in pursuing passion and pursuing creativity in whatever way creativity speaks to you. I was very lucky to be raised in a home that was very encouraging of my creative passions, not only from modeling perspective, but also in the way that they nurtured my own creativity. You know, they would drive me to auditions that were 45 minutes away. And then I would get into those shows and they'd have to drive me 45 minutes one way to go to the rehearsals every day after school. And they never complained about it. And now as an adult, looking at that, it's such a gift that they gave me to give me those opportunities and not give me any resistance in Yeah, we often talk about this and there being encouragement being a thing, but there's actually a practicality to it as well, which means you actually have to do some work to encourage your children in their creativity. So well done to your mummy and daddy. You have told me previously about an experience that led to you completely stopping with one of the creative activities that you've loved when you were younger. Can Yeah, so school was interesting when it came to writing. I always loved story, writing it, reading it, acting it out, all of that, but especially writing. I have lots of examples of books I wrote as a kid where my mom would like have to translate underneath my writing what it said. because it's like no one else would know what it says, but I'm like three years old trying to write a book. As a kindergartner, I actually wrote a children's book and brought it into my kindergarten class, and my teacher loved it so much that she kept it. So there were times in my academic life when I did feel incredibly supported in my writing, but there were also times, and unfortunately these seemed to be the ones that stuck with me more, There were times when school deterred me from being creative because of the pressure of grades. I mean, there were so many examples when I would have this creative urge to do something with a project and go a different route, think outside of the box and try something different in my writing. And I'd pull myself back from it because I knew that that wasn't what the teacher was looking for to get the A. And I am very much an on-the-path-to-recovery people pleaser. I was a straight A student. I literally never got a B in my entire academic career. And that was something I used to hang my hat on. I'm like, I am such a good student. This is my self-worth, blah, blah, blah. But when I was focused on making sure that I got the grade, sometimes that meant that I didn't take the risks. And risk is so ingrained in creative work, because if you're just following the status quo, You're never going to do something new and unique and honest. There were a bunch of instances throughout my academic career where I would tweak things to make sure I was doing what the teacher wanted instead of what I wanted or whatever. But there was one moment in my high school years that really kind of broke me as a writer for a very long time. I was nominated by one of my teachers to participate in a writing competition, which was a creative like fiction writing competition. And I was thrilled because I still at this point, anytime I had the opportunity to do creative writing, I would do it. Like any project where it was like an open forum, do whatever you want for this book project or this, you know, whatever, I would find a way to make it creative writing. And so I went into this writing competition, like, so excited to show what I had and to get feedback and to, you know, to put my work out there for the first time for real. And I didn't even place. Like, it wasn't that I didn't get first place or I didn't get second or I didn't get third. I think they gave honorable mentions to the top 10, which was like the top, I don't know, 25% of people. And I didn't place in that at all, which for a straight A student who was used to being at the top of all of the things, for me to not even place in something that I thought was my life calling was so painful and I stuffed it down because I was like, this is so silly. I don't want to be viewed as like a poor sport or a poor loser. And I think what also made it worse was the two other kids from my school did place. One of them won first place and she was a friend of mine. And then I had to get in the car with her from the award ceremony and drive two hours home. So that sucked. And then the other person from my school was one of my best friends, and he placed in the top 10. It was mortifying to me that I didn't place, and they did. And I didn't write creatively for the rest of high school through college into my professional life. Not until I was in my mid-20s did I write again after that competition, other than academic writing. It was definitely a I didn't know about the bit in the car as well. There you Oh my gosh. It was like, I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to cry because I wanted, I was so proud of her. She wrote this and her piece really was incredible and it was very personal and very vulnerable and she 100% deserved to win. But it was like, Oh my gosh. I Oh, good for you. So you mentioned about academic writing. What then did you go on to? What did you do at college? What was the aim for So I went to college for biology, which I think some people in the arts would be like, oh, I was pushed to do the sciences because that was the safe route. And that actually wasn't the case for me. I genuinely was interested in biology. I had considered going into med school or becoming an EMT or something along the lines of the sciences. I'm genuinely fascinated by science. And I do think that there is creativity within the science field as well. I also knew that I loved acting and was considering pursuing that as a double major, but I wasn't sure where I wanted to fall with acting and whether that was something I was going to continue to pursue aggressively or if that was going to be more of like a hobby of mine or something that I would do for fun. So I went into school as a biology major and I focused on that. So I went into school doing biology, but I knew that I didn't want to go to med school by the time I got to college because in high school, I took an EMT certification course that was connected to the community college near me. For those that don't know, EMT is like emergency medical technician. So it's people that are in the ambulances. And so I went Sorry, It's a shame. Anyway, so I got certified as an EMT, but part of my EMT training, I had to do an ambulance ride along. And during that ambulance ride along, I was a mess. crying. It's not even we went to any very dramatic or like traumatic calls, but it was so emotional to me that we were going to help people in like some of their worst moments in their life. And I think as an artist, as an actor in particular, who has to be incredibly attuned with my emotions and with the emotions of my scene partners and the character and the story, I couldn't handle the emotional component of being an EMT. I crushed all the technical stuff. Studying, I could do all of that. But getting into the ambulance and actually doing the ride along, I was like, nope, Medicine's not for me. I will play one on TV, thank you very much. I do not want to do this for real. But I still loved bio, so I was like, okay, there are other things that I can do with a biology degree. I don't totally know what they are, but I will go and learn about them at school. There's lots of things I can do. And I slowly realized that I didn't want to work in a lab because I'm too personable and I didn't want to be away from people all the time and I didn't want to go to medicine. So I was like, OK, well, what is left with biology? There's teaching and I did study education in school as well. So that was always on the back burner. But in college, the more that I interacted with people who were studying acting to then go into acting, acting majors who knew that they were going to pursue acting after school, the more I was like, yeah, Why not? Why can't I do that? Because I have all of these other tools that I can fall back on if I need to. The more I ingrained myself in the community of acting and storytelling, the more I was like, yeah, I can do this. And I think the tipping point for me really was my sophomore year, my then boyfriend was a senior. And so he graduated and he moved to LA to become an actor. And I was like, Well, I mean, he's good, but like, I think I'm just as good as he is. So if he can do it, why can't I do it? And I do genuinely owe that to him because he gave me the permission to follow my passion of acting after school. You know, we don't really talk very much anymore, but I do genuinely owe that to him, that watching him do that and make that choice for his life gave me the courage to make that choice for my life after school Yeah. Well, I like what you're saying actually, because lots of people will say that their parents said to them when they wanted to be actors, well, you need something else to fall back on, but you've already prepped for that by doing that. And that's actually given you the permission to then go and try the acting because you know you've got the other stuff with a little bit of a boost from seeing this other chap doing it. So what does it actually look like then when you leave college and then you're like, right, I'm going to go and be an actor and earn Yeah, so shocking the money doesn't just start flowing in the second you graduate with not even I didn't even major in acting I'm still majored in biology. I had a minor in acting but I moved to New York and I actually was very fortunate in that I did start to book small non-union jobs right away, but that was all I needed for myself was to start to ingrain myself in the community, start to connect with people. I had side jobs. My education in biology actually did come back into play in several different ways to help me. As actors, we tend to have lots of side jobs. So one of my main side jobs was and still is tutoring. And I tend to tutor a lot of math and science, which, thank you, biology major, and my education degree as well. I also started working as a standardized patient, which is probably the coolest job that I've ever had. For those that don't know, being a standardized patient is when they typically hire actors and you play the patient within a medical scenario for med students or residents who are practicing not only like the physical techniques, but it's more about the communication, interpersonal relationships. And a lot of times as a standardized patient, you not only play the patient, but then you give them feedback on how their interaction made you feel and your ability to be honest and open and vulnerable and understand the communication that was going back and forth between you and the doctor. And I love that job. One, it's a brilliant exercise as an actor in listening because you have to be so in tune with your quote-unquote scene partner who is not working from a script and is not an actor, is a real person. So it's a great exercise for an actor. But it also allowed acting to impact medicine and patient care down the line. help build a new generation of doctors who are not just focused on the textbook, but are focused on the human being in front of them and are attuned to cultural differences in care and resources and communication styles for neurodivergent people or gender nonconforming people. Just so much that can be lost in the study of science. but that is so important to the practice of medicine. So those were my two primary sources of income. But what was really important for me was maintaining flexibility and control over my schedule because as an actor, especially at that time when it was a little bit before the self-tape, boom that the pandemic brought, it was so important to be available at the drop of a hat to show up at an audition in, you know, 24 hours. And so those jobs allowed for that. And so I had income streams that I really enjoyed that didn't suck my creative energy and my enthusiasm. They bolstered it. And at the same time, I was able to continue to pursue acting. Yeah, that's a really good balance. Going back to the patient, you Yes, yes. You are the patient giving feedback to the doctor. Although I did one time play a doctor, I have a picture of me in my lab coat, or not my lab coat, my white coat, because it was about inter departmental communication, black case. So it's about how you communicate with, like, staff members. But yes, 95% of the time you're playing either the patient or sometimes, like, a This is really important to look at the patient as a human being that has emotions and a background and a future. This is all very positive and moving along. Let's get back to the writing because you mentioned that you completely stopped writing, but I know that's not the case now. How did you come back to being comfortable with putting pen to paper or I picked up the book The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron because I thought that it would help with my acting work. The Artist's Way is like a 12-week program in the form of a book that walks you through creative recovery and self-exploration. It's brilliant. I highly recommend it if you've never heard of it or never done the program. As part of the Artist's Way, there's two things that she says you have to do on an ongoing basis. Morning pages, which are three pages of free thought, writing every morning, and an Artist's Date every week, which is where you take yourself out on a date for a couple hours and do something to feed your creative soul and refill the well. Part of the Artist's Way, there's a week called the Reading Deprivation Week, and During the reading deprivation week, you're not supposed to read anything. For one week, do not read anything. This book was written quite a long time ago, so I extended that to television, to podcasts, to audiobooks, to radios like Spotify, to social media. I eliminated everything. The idea being if you decrease all of the input that you're putting into your body, if you take that all away, all that noise, you can increase your output of creative work. And that might not show up immediately in the week, but that's kind of the general sense. That week I was babysitting and I put the kids down and I sat down on the couch and I was like, Okay, what do I do? I can't watch TV. I can't read a book. I can't go on Instagram. The parents are going to be home for like three more hours. What am I going to do? And fortunately I had brought a notebook with me and I just started to write. Something had happened in my life the previous weekend that I was still processing and grappling with, and I used writing as a way to explore those thoughts and those emotions and exercise empathy and understanding for the different perspectives of the scenario that was going on in my personal life. And I ended up writing four drafts, I think, of what would become my directorial debut screenplay. all in that one sitting. I just like fever rode it. It was incredible because I realized that not only did I miss writing, and I loved writing, and writing is therapeutic for me and healing for me, but I also realized that screenwriting was more my style from a writing perspective because I had only ever been exposed to prose before as, you know, through academic readings, it's always American literature. It's literature, right? It's heavy. A lot of times it's very seeped in like dense, descriptive words and paragraphs. And I always was like, I don't want to read three pages about the hibiscus. Like, I'm sorry, I don't. I was always so much more interested in the human connection, the dialogue and what's not being said, but what's being communicated through body language or the internal monologues. And I realized that that's exactly what screenwriting is. You are creating the characters and outlining the world, but The rest of the world is filled in by all of the other people who come together to make a film. The screenwriter is the start of that, but they don't have to fill in all of those details. They leave open the space for other creatives to add their creative input to it. And that was awesome because I was like, okay, great. I don't have to do that. I can write what I like to write. There is actually an art form for my style of writing. So then I took that fourth draft or whatever of my screenplay and I, of course, did what I had done in the past and had sometimes come back to bite me, which was I asked for feedback from someone. That someone happens to be my husband now, but at the time he was my new boyfriend. We had not been dating for super long and I very much respected his opinion because he had gone to school for film and television. We were standing in line for a Tribeca Film Festival screening and I like kind of shyly was like, I just wrote this thing. Like, I don't know. What do you think? And I like handed my phone to him and he stood there and read through it. And, you know, it was like a 12 page script. So it took him like 10 minutes or so to read it. I think maybe a little faster, but it felt like an eternity. And then he was just like, cool. And he handed it back to me and I was like, um, what'd you think? And he was like, do you want to know? And I was like, well, now I don't know. Do I want to know? And he was just messing with me. He loved it. And we ended up going into the pre-production process together and we ended up co-directing it when we made it into a film. But it was that moment of like, maybe I wasn't ready for feedback quite yet. And it did teach me a lesson in knowing when I want feedback, and knowing what I want feedback about. Because sometimes you can be ready for feedback about certain aspects of a story, but not everything. Maybe you know that your dialogue is just placeholder dialogue, but you want to know if the story arc makes sense. And I've learned that now it's okay to be like, okay, this is what I want feedback on, I don't want feedback on this. And that's helped a lot, but Most importantly, this whole experience brought me back to writing, which You're quite happy to keep going. Yes. And you know, it comes and it goes, but I do find that whenever I need to process something, the way I process it best is Brilliant. Oh, that's really good that you have that and you can see that. I know that Julia Cameron comes back. She pops up again because you had another creative hiatus. Tell me why and how that happened and how you realised that you maybe Yeah I know that earlier you said like everything's been so positive about acting but it wasn't always like it didn't continue. I had an acting hiatus for a while and honestly it was more of a creative hiatus in general like big picture everything and it started with the pandemic. So I was living in New York City when COVID hit and the entire city shut down. We were on lockdown for Mons. My acting studio, clothes, like everything. We were just in our apartment, locked away from the world. And I found out that I was pregnant with my first child the week after lockdown started in New York. So I took a break from everything, as did many people, because We were, you know, we were processing this crazy, enormous thing that was happening in our lives. And I thought it was okay. My industry was shut down. There was nothing happening that I could be pursuing anyway. So I was like, well, I'm not taking a break. There's just nothing happening. My industry is shut down. No one can be on set. No one's working right now. So yeah, I'm not going to keep doing class because there's too many other things that I need to process." And, you know, they were figuring out how remote classes even worked. So I was like, I'll save the money. I need to save the money because I'm not working as much. Like, I'll take a break. I'll step away. And also during that time, I moved. We bought our first house. And then, of course, we welcomed our first child. And all through that, I had this like nervousness about money as many, many people did because a lot of my jobs weren't transferable to remote or at least they hadn't figured out how to transfer them to remote. So for the first time in my entire life, I was like on unemployment and I did not feel comfortable with that. And so I managed to manifest, for lack of a better word, my first full-time W-2 real job, I'm using air quotes, that had health insurance and benefits and like all. I've never had anything like that before in my entire professional life because I was always a freelancer. I loved the freedom of being freelance. But during this time, I was like, well, there's no reason not to. There's nothing I have to be free and flexible for because there's no acting going on. And this job was remote and was flexible. So I was like, hey, maybe this is the perfect job for me. On paper, it looked like it was because it was a standardized patient program that I would not only play patients, but I was in a leadership position. So I was training other standardized patients and I was helping to develop the new cases. And It was all online. It did seem to check every box. If we look at what I studied in college, I studied acting, education, and biology. This job is the only job in the world where I got to do all three of those things in a career. And so on paper it looked awesome and I couldn't believe that I didn't even apply for it. I was working with this company as just a standardized patient and they offered it to me unprompted. They were new to the world of standardized patient stuff and I had been working in it for so long I kept being like, Do you want me to help you with this? Or we could develop this policy or like, let's standardize these practices a little bit more. I just kind of kept giving suggestions. And then finally, they were like, hey, do you want to do this? Like, for real, we'll pay you. I was like, great, let's do it. And I was miserable. I was absolutely miserable. I thought maybe at the beginning it was, you know, it was a startup. So I was like, it's the stress of a startup. We're going to find our groove and then it will be great. Then I went on maternity leave and I came back and learned that only more fires had popped up while I was gone. And there was no consistency. There was no safety in this job. But more than that. It was all consuming mentally. My creative focus was gone. I had no other creative outlet and I didn't feel like I had the time or energy to pursue any of my other creative outlets even when I wasn't working because it was all going into this job that was slowly becoming soul-sucking. And I realized that I was a freelancer at heart But I really do have to attribute it to the artist's way again, because I was feeling this disconnect and I didn't know why, but I knew that I had done the Artist's Way in the past and that had helped me reground myself as an artist, as an actor, as a writer. So when I was in the throes of new parenthood with this job that was driving me crazy, I decided to coordinate a group round of the Artist's Way with some of my creative peers. In week three, the very first section is called anger, and she talks about anger being a tool, anger being like a signpost of something that isn't working in your life. Can I actually read the quote? I have it pulled up right here. She says, anger is the firestorm that signals the death of our old life. Anger is the fuel that propels us into our new one. Anger is a tool, not a master. Anger is meant to be tapped into and drawn upon. Used properly, anger is useful. When I read that quote, at the time I was so angry. in my job for so many different reasons. And I won't obviously get into all the nitty gritty, but I just, I was so angry. And reading that, I was like, I need to quit. I need to quit my job. So I did. And it was like, magic, like the universe was telling me you did the right thing because the week I quit my job, I brought in four new clients for my freelance work. I don't bring in new clients that regularly, like ever. And it was like, okay, this is my sign that this is the right direction for me. And on top of all of that, Not only did I get myself out of that kind of toxic professional relationship, but I also signed back up for a new acting class and immediately felt better. I was like, I don't know why I keep forgetting how important Acting and an acting community is to me as a human. It's happened a few times in my life where I've stepped away from acting and then I get absolutely miserable and I'm like, why am I miserable? And then I go back to acting and I'm like, oh, right. And so I am very proud to say that I have finally learned that lesson because I had my second child and I didn't take a break at all from my acting class. Like, not a break. I think I showed up six days postpartum to my acting class. I mean, it was in Zoom, so it was easy to do. But yeah, and it really is like my soul. As much as I can I know I need to return to these creative outlets whenever life gets hard, not fall Yeah. What a realisation! And for you to actually keep remembering it now, you've realised it and lost Yeah, yeah. So you've got acting back and you've got writing back and you have a family. How do those things all kind of intertwine in your everyday life now and keep you, do my absolute best to keep up with my morning pages practice, which is so grounding for me. I also work on scripts sporadically as inspiration strikes. Sometimes I've got a script that I'm writing or sometimes I've got a finished script and we're working on shooting it or producing it or whatever. I'm also exploring writing books again. And I've been inspired over the last few months to pursue some of the like children's books ideas that I have because I've got kids and there are stories and messages that I want to communicate to them in a more of a lasting way. So that's fun. And then another one was start working on some kind of a novel, for lack of a better word. I don't know if it's going to be a memoir or fiction or what, but I am starting to dabble into other writing in addition to screenwriting. And then I have a script that I'm working on too. So just kind of leaning into following wherever my creative energy is leading me at the time. I'm also, from an acting perspective, the strike in the U.S. just ended. So things are starting to pick back up. I've had a swarm of auditions in the last few days, which is wonderful. Ironically, none were struck projects. None of them are coming back because the strike is over. It just happened to align that way. But I don't know if it's an energetic shift or something that is just out there that's like, OK, we're here to do business now. But it's all about just giving myself the opportunity to pursue those things. We've, my husband and I, we've built our life around being able to pursue those projects. We're both freelancers. We have a flexible schedule and a flexible childcare situation, and we are creative partners. And so that allows us to honor each other's passions, but also share our passions and be able to pursue things Yeah. And what a lovely example you'll be giving to That's a big part of it for me is modeling, pursuing your passion and whatever that passion may be. But I do remind myself of that all the time that our kids are watching and we see it. My little guy, my older child, he's almost three and he is an artist. Like the drawings that he makes, I'm like, How did that come out of your brain? It's so cool to just watch that develop Yeah. Oh, that's so lovely. So I usually ask about your aspirations for the future at this point in the show, which I think you've touched on, but is there anything else maybe further afield or anything you wanted to mention about thoughts going I really would love to direct a feature film someday, whether or not I'm acting in it. I think having that creative control over the big picture of everything, I would love to be more in a leadership capacity Fabulous. Thank you so much, Corrie. It's been really lovely to talk to you, and it's been so very uplifting and joyful. How I am on Instagram, primarily at creatingwithcorrie. Corrie is spelled C-O-R-R-I-E. And my website's the same, creatingwithcorrie. And if I just put it out there, if anybody is interested in doing The Artist's Way, I run like periodic group sessions of it. It's a really hard program to do by yourself. So, if that's something that you're interested in, you can email me at cori at Brilliant. Brilliant. And I can't think of a better person to do The Artist's Way with. I must admit, I started reading it and I didn't get all the way through. It's so common. It is really hard to get through, especially if you're doing it solo. I've done it several times and the one time that I tried to do it on my own without doing it with other people, I only made it Yeah. Yeah, I think you got a little bit further than me. I think I only But I had already done it before. So I had done it before and I Yeah, interesting. Anyway, we could talk forever. Thank you very much, Corrie. Really, really thoroughly enjoyed our chat. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for listening to Creativity Found. I hope you enjoyed this episode and gained some value from it. If you did, perhaps you'd like to contribute a small monetary sign of appreciation, either by becoming a regular supporter from as little as $3 per month, using the link in the show notes, or if you're listening on a value-for-value enabled app, such as Fountain, TrueFans or Podverse, feel free to send a few sats my way. I also occasionally promote products that I personally use, so please use the affiliate link where relevant if you are buying from those fine companies. Thanks so much, I really appreciate
