Lesley Wildman RCA – if at first you don't succeed . . .

Lesley Wildman loved her art foundation year, but was disappointed not to get into art college. It wasn’t until she decided to train to be a teacher that pursuing her artistic ambitions became a possibility once again.
As a mature student aty the Royal College of Art, Lesley worked with glass rods in an attempt to push the boundaries of this material.
But Lesley has never liked to be pigeon-holed, and has worked in two-dimensions and three, as well as at a veterinary surgery and for a company that makes hydraulic hoses.

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Researched, edited and produced by Claire Waite Brown
Music: Day Trips by Ketsa Undercover / Ketsa Creative Commons License Free Music Archive - Ketsa - Day Trips
Artworks: Emily Portnoi emilyportnoi.co.uk
Photo: Ella Pallet

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Transcript

Claire Waite Brown: 0:29

For this episode, I'm speaking with Leslie Wildman, who creates beautiful artworks using yarns stretched over canvas. Leslie loved her Art Foundation year, but was disappointed not to get into art college. It wasn't until she decided to train to be a teacher, that pursuing her artistic ambitions became a possibility once again. Hi, Leslie.

Unknown: 2:12

Hello, Claire, how are you?

Claire Waite Brown: 2:14

good. Thank you. You have a number of artistic strings to your bow. But what is it that you are most involved with right now,

Unknown: 2:23

a couple of things really, the art side of it in respects to painting is the painting with threads. So cottons, silks, any colours that attract me that I think I'd like to use, and a little bit of writing, which I didn't see coming on Horizon. So that's an interesting thing. A lot of stuff that I didn't expect to be happening at the moment, which is quite nice.

Claire Waite Brown: 2:48

Brilliant. Start by telling me about your childhood artistic experiences.

Unknown: 2:54

I'm one of twins, I've got a twin brother. And when my mother had her, she was only expecting one. So she was completely thrown by the whole experience. And she'd had arthritis. rheumatoid arthritis, which comes back really badly after pregnancy. The state paid for us to go into a nursery, which was unusual. We were from a working class family. It really stuck in my memory where blue paint was applied over this paper and you're allowed to run your fingers through it. And it just produced this amazing texture and lines and colour densities and it absolutely mesmerised me and I've never forgotten it. And I think that's pretty much where I started to feel some kind of creativity, maybe even if it was unconscious, it was certainly something that that kind of medium attracted me to particularly with the colour. I felt my 11 Plus, my mother at that point, decided that I was not bright. So in a derogatory way, said to me, Well, the only thing you can do is art. And so I went to Bedford Art Foundation course. And although it wasn't meant to be a nice thing to say, to me, ended up being the best thing ever happened to me because it was a fantastic course. It was just a freeing up of everything. I'd started with that little painting when I was tiny. Yeah.

Claire Waite Brown: 4:25

What was the experience like the at your foundation,

Unknown: 4:29

that obviously I was then with other people who were like minded, which made a difference. It was a time when people didn't have specific categories of things they had to do it wasn't categorised in that way at all. You that there was a 3d Studio downstairs and upstairs was the drawing and your little rooms that you have to yourself. And we were literally allowed to do what we wanted. They were the tutors were amazing that set up the most amazing drawing projects that really blew our minds. They would walk in one morning and they'd set up all the drawing boards were suspended in midair. 1000s of them. I don't know how long it taken it to do and we had to draw them. And that was a drawing challenge. Because not only was it perspective, but it was it was there was nothing spatially that we could relate to each other. So you had to use the depth of pressure of the pencil or whatever you were using to be able to produce depth and it was the point that I started to engage in the idea that your eye can be led to believe, a horizon or a distance just by the colour or the or the pressure of the medium you were using was absolutely amazing. It was a, an opening up, you know, I hadn't been outside of my own tiny village at that point. So to go on the bus to Bedford was like, Well, I mean, the big time. Yeah. But then at the end of that, then you'd apply to go to art school. And I'd met my future husband there as well. So that that put another interesting spin on the whole thing. And he got less than I didn't get in at all, he got in with six pieces of work. I had two folders full of work and didn't get in anywhere. So I then reluctantly, left and got a job.

Claire Waite Brown: 6:23

So what work are you doing,

Unknown: 6:25

I got a job in a hydraulic hose factory as the designer for their literature, and their stance, it was the only job I could get. And it was the worst job where there's nothing creative, particularly in it. I mean, we did our best with some of the stands that we had to put up. But I was way out of my depth, didn't like it at all. And when my husband came back from college, we stayed in Bedford and I worked in what was then a prompter print, I don't even think they do that anymore.

Claire Waite Brown: 6:58

I remember,

Unknown: 7:00

I was their designer, for a while. That was another interesting thing. But that was quite a discipline, actually. Because I had to do become more graphic and what I was doing and was less able to be and have that kind of freedom. So there was a learn thing there. You know, it did actually constrain me for a while. But in a way that was really useful. Yeah. And when I got married, and I had three children, so it wasn't until quite late on that I was then able to go back into art education, I carried on doing all sorts of things. And my husband was at the time working for Marvel Comics. So if we did have an artistic base between us, which was quite good. But then, as the children got older, I really wanted to go back to learning art, learning anything I could, yeah.

Claire Waite Brown: 7:50

You did manage to go back to art education. First through teacher training, I believe, but then to study 3d design at Middlesex University. How How did that all come about? And how did you manage to juggle uni, and life as a grown up with all the responsibilities that that brings.

Unknown: 8:09

I was really lucky. Andrew at that point was working at home. So we had a studio in the garden. And I got a lovely lady I knew who childminding my youngest daughter. And because he was working at home, he just used to get the children from school. And there was a big move at that time to get teachers into primary schools. And Bedford again, had a teacher training course at demontfort. And you could do an access to teacher training. So when I'd left school, I came away, they didn't do levels. So I only had CSCs, which didn't count for anything. But I had to have two or a levels and former o levels to get on to the teacher training. So I did a night school teacher training course, and managed to get them all in one year, which was pretty hard going to say. But while I was there, at the time, you could do art as a major in teaching, which I'm fortunate, tragically, you can't do now. So I did teach I did art and English literature. Again, something I wouldn't necessarily have looked into but absolutely loved. And why you had to be obsessed with your art as you were going along. And the first year I was assessed by an external examiner. And he just took me to one side and said if you stay here, your level of art will drop. And fortunately, there was a lady there whose husband was a technician at Middlesex, all serendipitously there's nothing planned at all. And she said to me, I think you should apply. And I did apply thinking well, you know, give it another go. And I got in and I was just absolutely bowled over by it. But then I had to tell the art tutor at Bedford that I was leaving, and he was not impressed. But there was nothing was going to stop me I was going to go without a doubt. So I used to drive to London or potters bar every day. And at the time I as a student I could be funded to go so I had no money whereas in that respect, so I was really really lucky. And it was a really nice course again, it was quite free. We did lots of disciplines. So you could try out everything in the first and second year was absolutely brilliant. And then when you got to the Third year, you could choose and I chose glass. I chose it because there weren't many people doing it. I loved it because it was sparkly. I mean, there weren't there was nothing planned about this. It was. So what attracted me more than anything? It wasn't really, what's the practicalities of doing this at all? Yeah, it was a challenge to actually use a furnace. And really, it's a great medium Sperber to use. But to be technically good at glassblowing, you'd need years of practice. So although you had a inroad into understanding how it was physically difficult to do, you actually get anything blown, you would have to employ somebody, and that's when the costs start to come in. So I used hot blast rods, where I actually did do from the furnace, and they were rolled on a metal table, and then cut and joined into circles. Because I really wanted to make a bigger piece. But to make a big pieces of blown glass is almost physically impossible, especially if you've only been doing it for a year. So I joined those rings together with metal. And the metal I chose was silver, and copper and copper could be patinated into different colours. So that made a grid that held the glass rods together and the whole thing moved, which is not necessarily what you'd expect with glass.

Claire Waite Brown: 11:54

Yeah,

Unknown: 11:55

it was the idea and the map, the ability to be able to play with that medium that bought that about which was again, not planned. It just happened because of being allowed to mess around. You know, it sounds like a How can you quantify that in learning today? Oh, here's here's a module in in messing about. It just wouldn't work. But it's absolutely vital. Yeah. Getting through to the end was was great. Last year, everything was going really well. And then unfortunately, Andrews job caved in Marvel Comics in the US at that point, filed for Chapter 11, which was bankruptcy. And in true American form, it was everything shut down overnight. So we lost all of our income. And we had at that point moved into a bigger house, which turned out to be the money pit. And he spiralled into depression, which was difficult to handle. But he was absolutely determined that I wasn't going to give up the final year. So to be able to continue, I had to get a job which I managed to work as admin in the art history department at Middlesex. And I got a job in the evening. So I come home in the evening for about six o'clock and then get the kids to go to the RSPB, which was near where I lived, and do their data entry till 10 at night and then start again the next day. It was gruelling, but it meant I had to do it. I you know, I was compromising a lot of people to do this. We were compromising my financial situation. But I still managed to get at first I was really proud of it. And I felt I knew then I've got it in me to be able to do it. And I think maybe the with the pressure. As hard as it was it meant I had to be focused. And that was a good but bad kind of situation and a life learning situation for not just for me, but for my husband and us as a relationship. And he did eventually manage to then get a job in Oxford.

Claire Waite Brown: 14:31

I asked Leslie about applying to join the Royal College and her unusual interview experiences.

Unknown: 14:38

Somebody put a small piece of might have what they call a maquette which is a smaller version of something you're about to make. And it went into a package that went to starbridge glass museum. I'd already applied to the Royal College once and I didn't get in everybody applied. If you got a first that's what you did you apply to the Royal College. And I went along for the interview and spoke to Professor Martin Smith. Very nice. Thank you very much. Halfway through the interview, fire alarm goes off. So had to finish the interview outside the Royal Albert Hall. So the intimidation was lievable I didn't get in. So great, no problem. Meanwhile, this package gone. And the piece I put in actually won a prize. And I actually spoke to the lady that did the judging and she said to me, You must apply to Royal College again, she was about to become a tutor there and encouraged me to apply again, which I did. At that point, you know, I was having to make sure that we were still earning a living so i'd opened up a small gallery we'd move to a smaller place in a very small town and that was going really well. I've been asked to do some teaching at Bedford foundation. And one of the art tutors are 3d artists who's a sculptor called Andrew j He had fallen off his bike and broken his hip. And he's they've got in contact with me to go and take on the course, which I did. And I really, really liked it. And then they offered me more hours. And that was the key inroad to the teaching and the subject I really liked the gallery was going really well. And then they said, apply to Royal College again. And I thought, well, I don't really know whether I need to whether it's something I should do, I've got to think of the financial side of things, I got to think of future for the children. My husband just said, Go for it. See, see what happens. I've, unfortunately had my wisdom teeth out two days before, and I couldn't change the date of the interview. So I landed up going with bruising down my neck, I couldn't open my jaw very well. radiator and I don't remember my feet touching the floor, I've got no idea what I said. And halfway through the second interview, the fire alarm goes off again. Honestly, and the Professor Smith looked to me and he says this happened last time, didn't it? I suddenly thought remember me, it meant I was I was there when I you know i'd actually been seen and notice. So again, we had to finish the interview outside the Royal College is absolutely chucking it down. And I again, I'm like happy as Larry, I'm on these drugs. Thank you very much. And I did get in. And it was great. It was an absolutely amazing but intimidating. It meant decisions have to be made. It meant I've got to really consider why I was doing this. And in my true fashion, I didn't take any of that into consideration. And under my husband got to do it. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity, you've got to do it. And again, I was so lucky because I was it was paid the tuition fees were paid for me. And at the time, they were 50 15,000 pounds a year. It's an I have no idea how people could afford it unless they get help. And there were a lot of foreign students there that paid most of it. And it was a time when they were trying to force art into industry. It had to kind of represent itself as something that could bring in an income. It wasn't just the odd artists becoming famous it was this the purpose of art was to further industry to further produce something where quantifiable and with money value. So it was a very strange closing down if you like or trying pigeon holing all of that freedom that I felt before, into certain categories, the glass studio, there was very small, again, just the one furnace, so it's quite difficult. So I took on a separate course at Westminster to do scientific glassblowing, which taught me a lot but I did pay for that. And it then brought me into using glass is very thin rod similar with a torch very similar to the people you used to see in seaside resorts that made glass animals. And it meant again, I could use that particular medium in small pieces to make larger and that that's kind of what I started with. I started with, okay, how far can I push this. And I managed to put a tourist so a circle was like a tire. And it was 22 inches wide. And it free. It stood on its own. So I had to have a cradle made for it from our minion but it stood up. And that at the end of the Royal College was I was asked to send that to Sotheby's in New York, which was fantastic. But again, incredibly intimidating. The end of year show at the Royal College was gallery festival. I mean everybody came Saatchi Sotheby's Christie's are all kind of top notch galleries came along. When there was a strange kind of thing because it moved then from something I was enjoying to something again, that became particularly commercial to some degree. So they would come around and and assess the value of the resale of the pieces you were doing. And I get you know, art is about if you want to make a living out of it, that's what it becomes. But for me, the moment somebody said to me, can you make it in blue without understanding the complexities of bringing in a colour to a clear glass? I just thought, Okay, how can I do I would have to set up an entire workshop to be able to do this, and I couldn't afford to do that. But that particular piece came back from New York because it was 911. So nothing was opened at all. Came back that use the Queen's shippers. So everything came back absolutely pristine. It was an purpose built wooden boxes thing. I'd been asked from the show to put a piece in the VNA contemporary, which they did every year. That was in the basement because it wouldn't be at the front, because we have a contemporary. This piece that I'd produced was going to be on a turntable and lit so that it would catch the light as it moves. So it's going to be the hub this lady's particular showpiece she was an online gallery owner. And when it came out from the storage, it was quashed to smithereens it was at lately, power. It was just in a million ways. So it didn't get shown. And I didn't get any of the insurance money because I hadn't paid the insurance. I'd had a piece in the crafts Council which was in Neal's yard. At that time, it was a piece I've produced over months. And that changed a light bulb over it, and dropped the light bulb and wrote the piece. I'd had a gallery in Paris asked me to produce something similar to what I'd done when I was at Middlesex, one of the bags. And it was a commission and it was by one of the perfumers who'd asked to have it in black. So I had to work out how to use a colour in a clear glass. And they wanted it threaded with enamelled red, copper. All of that other time I had to import because it wasn't available here, freely available now, of course, off to Paris, and I never saw it or any money again. And it got to the point where I thought, okay, I get that I'm in these amazing galleries. I mean, I'm seen by these people, this is the whole point of what you wanted to do. But it absolutely left me broke, there was no comeback. The whole gallery system to me was at that level was something I'd never encountered before. There was there was a kind of not agreed but a kind of need for them to prove their worth. App costs to me or cost to my work. I found it really, really, really intimidating. And I it wasn't really what I did it for to be honest. You know, we'd all like to make a living out of it. But for me, it was the creative side of it. It it that was what my that touched my soul if you like. So there's a lot of it was a lot of thinking about well, how do I carry on with this? You know, I can't put my family through even more. And I just had to get a job. And by that point, Andrew was out too naturally job feeling

Claire Waite Brown: 23:39

for games. And I know that you

Unknown: 23:42

and I have to get to

Claire Waite Brown: 23:44

that point. So tell me more about that time.

Unknown: 24:00

We'd moved to the only house we could afford in Chipping Norton because at the time, it's a lot more expensive to live here than it was in in Bedfordshire. We went into a very dilapidated 60s built chalet bungalow. But opposite that was a very hospital that was asking for a Saturday girl. And I really loved animals, we'd always had cats and dogs, I had a horse when I was younger. My mother was a candle made, there was all that kind of side of me as well. And what seemed to be happening was anything I did was from a hobby or something I really liked doing. And I thought, well, I'll I'll go into a Saturday job, it'd be fine. But this time the children were in school. And I went and the interview consisted of one of the vets saying, Are you do you like animals? And I said, Yes. And he said, You've got the job. We're going off. I walked in thinking, this is this is they've been there 25 years, it probably probably even more or so it was very, very set in its way of working. And I can't have been creative thought, well, let's improve it. Let's change this, I could see how that could happen. better conditions for the nurses, better run meetings. So my creativity went from being on paint, paint, pen and paper or whatever medium I was using, and was looking at almost every practice was a 3d model. I could mould into whatever I thought would work best. Which was fine, but it wasn't necessarily what they wanted. I felt a bit like I was beating my head against a brick wall. And they did take on a lot of stuff, but it was it wasn't it got as far as it could to that extent. So but I learned a lot I learned a lot about planning. I learned a lot about myself and my capability. And also that being creative isn't a one trick pony. You know you don't just do Painting you don't just do 3d you, you can be creative in cooking in what you wear and how you decorate your house and people you meet and all of those kinds of things. Yeah, was great. And the biggest freedom of all for me because it meant I could be creative and mess about that word again, those words again, with anything. After one, I then went into partnership in a wall shop with the lovely Claire Jarvis, or the fireworks, and I was there for seven years. And I was surrounded by the most beautiful colours, textures, walls, fabrics, everything. And apart from running the shop, I started to mess about again with the walls. And one of the things I was drawn to was the texture and colour, the colours were absolutely phenomenal. And I got some canvases. And I thought, well, I'll have a gun. Let's see what have I just some of the balls of wool I couldn't use because there was so beautiful as they were, that was really my husband really appreciate because that collection grew quite quickly. I then started to use them by wrapping them around, I had a very long, thin canvas that I'd never used because it was a really odd shape. As well, let's just wrap it around and see what happened. And it was amazing what happened if the colour produce this depth. Because we're so used to seeing the horizon, you form that connection, and you can see it in something that isn't there. And that was absolutely fascinating. To me, I thought, Wow, that's really good. And I wondered if I could actually produce that. So it looked more like a landscape. But I tried it more and more and more. And that's how the thread painting came about. And I'd got a really, I was in a lucky position to be able to use those yarns. And I'd also been able to take part in a class of yarn dyeing, so we can actually dye those yarns the colours I needed. Again, it was one of those situations, okay, well, let's see how big I can go. And I did produce some that are about four foot long. And also I could use sparkly stuff, you know, I could bring in that those those thin fret threads that you'd normally see on wedding dresses just to set it or set it off to look like water. So that as you moved by it, it's almost as though the sea was rolling. It was almost as though the rain was falling or the missiles coming down,

Claire Waite Brown: 29:08

which goes back to x. Rapid nation,

Unknown: 29:13

producers that you mentioned standing on the edge of standing in a word, or who is wrapping

Claire Waite Brown: 29:20

your threads? Are you inspired by the threads? Are you trying to replicate something that you see? Or is it a mix of both? Yeah.

Unknown: 29:40

It's definitely a mix of both. I've had particular yarn recently that just looked like a poppy field before you did anything. But I've also been on walks around the country and seeing it at one point, I did a landscape of a wheat field through looking through a hedge. And I thought I wonder how far I can use that corners of the canvas to produce that peeking through a whole feeling. Because obviously, there are constraints to it. And there are things you know, if you do it too tight to the corner, it all unravels. So the experiment, the pushing of it. And that's the whole thing I think I've tried to do with everything I've done, the more you push it, the more you learn your limits, and the more you learn what you can and can't do with it. But unless you try it, you don't know. And failing isn't a problem failing is actually a huge learning thing. So if you know, I've done some what I've thought what is like a muddy pool, yeah. Or you know, using too much black flattens it. But the only way I knew that was by trying it. So there are a few canvases that are going nowhere and will be seen by nobody. I think having has been the foundation that allowed you to do so much for yourself enough to see that work some people in it and it didn't for others. For me it was it was gold. And they they would ask you to push something. So getting to a stopping point is a whole other learning curve. But then what do you do and and in some respects, you do leave it but you learn from that to do something bigger, do something better. Push it, whichever way you wanted to turn it inside out upside down, change the colour, black and white colour or not. It was amazing. Also to use different mediums to produce the thing you were trying to say. And that was something that I don't think there is so much of nowadays, I'm not sure but it seems to me that the more artists pushed into things that can be categorised, so your sections that they do at school for now where you have to do so many things and then you pass that module you have to them as soon as you pass that module means you very often don't interlink the two. And if you do, it's almost difficult to then categorise it. Doing textiles is a way I do has been difficult getting in galleries again, because where do I fit? You know, am I textiles? Or am I painting or am I 3d. So that's been a little bit difficult, but I don't mind that I don't mind that at all. That's me kind of giving up not giving up on the galleries, but literally saying this what it is, it's your job to decide whether you need to put it in a category. And I was fortunate enough to be shown in a Woodstock gallery. And that is amazing place because there are no categories. And then the more out of the box, you are the better. Darling, the bear was absolutely brilliant. It was a good place to be in a fantastic place to see what other people are doing in the same context. Really.

Claire Waite Brown: 32:44

Yeah, I was gonna say about Dolly in the bear because I went there to see yours. But I was very impressed with the very different materials and there was a Doll's House in the Chipping Norton part of it. There's this beautiful colourful acrylics with this other chapters. I loved it there all sorts of different stuff. That's brilliant. Where do you get your threads from?

Unknown: 33:10

It's been interesting I've ever seen. I worked in the warship anyway, so any threads that came in, that I found interesting, I would use and could purchase but some people would bring in their late grandmother's sewing boxes or wool collections. Or there was one lady who was a wedding dress, seamstress. And she'd passed away and her family said, Did you want any of this? And I just thought, oh, what couldn't I meant to have a lot It was absolutely phenomenal. So they repurposed everything a lot of it is repurposed the things that would have been thrown away, which has been a tragic day for me because I didn't know if you get so many different colours of gold or how shimmery some Silver's can be and how flat some could be. And you know, there are rainbow stuff is like a treasure box. And it was in and you know, people they knew I was doing this I've noticed massive stash. And I sometimes it is just so lovely to look at it. So there are some yarns or some Cotton's that change colour as they go through. So even on cotton rail, you've got a variegation. And it's fascinating. Just I don't know, that's that's me, I suppose my way of looking is through not necessarily what I'm going to do with it in the long run, because that's that's just the journey I go on with those things. But to notice and to see some medium that has potential. It is just amazing. Absolutely love it.

Claire Waite Brown: 34:48

Brilliant. Sounds fabulous. You mentioned about not being pigeon holed and your unbound creativity. And I know that you've recently embarked on a writing project. How did that come about?

Unknown: 35:02

So that's another thing kind of not thinking, thinking or allowing those things to or ever comes along in life to be approached with creativity means that things open up you weren't really expecting. So I was asked by a lady, a friend of ours whose husband in Seymour wells and artists Australian who'd emigrated to England had passed away. And he had had a studio at the top floor of a three storey building. And she hadn't been in there five years, he'd had a stroke and was unable to get up the stairs, which was a tragedy. And she asked me to help clear it for her. And I was just bowled over by the fact that she'd even asked me. But when I walked into the room, it was absolutely chaotic. And I remember standing there thinking what if I let myself in for but it took about a year 18 months to actually sort through the whole lot. And I managed to re purpose and reframe some of his work and we had an exhibition that took me not theatre, which is pretty much a sellout which was absolutely fantastic. His wife was so pleased because it's really what he would have liked, but he had had a rejection from a Sydney Museum of Modern Art. He was supposed to be having a retrospective there and they cancelled it. And he never showed anything again. So all his work hadn't been seen for over 20 years. And I was at the privileged position of seeing it all. Amongst all of this, there were private letters from his art. And his art was a lady called Barbara toi, who was a travel writer in the 50s and 60s, and she travelled around the world in a Landrover, an ancient land rover, which she called Pollyanna, on her own. Totally naive Lee going across Arabia when she shouldn't be and being shot at as was the time when somebody passed away the letters that they'd sent were then returned to the person who written them. So they were everywhere, they're all over the place. And I started to catalogue those as well. And they started off in the, I think it was 1928, I think was the first one. Talking about how she had left Australia, she got married, she married a Panamanian console, she separated but they never told anyone ever told anybody she was married. She then lived in London during the Blitz, she was passive. And so the people that went abroad to entertain the troops, she was an ambulance driver. And she was a producer and writer for theatre, and then films. So she was part of our story and part of the beginning of the British film industry. And then just out of the blue decided she was going to travel the world, she became disillusioned with the casting couch mentality, even though it hadn't been called back then, the lady who the wife had asked me to clean all this up for her, I didn't want any of it. And I couldn't throw it away. I just couldn't. There was so much history and so much of her Barbara toy in this, the writing of these letters, that I managed to ask a friend of a friend who was a writer and had co written another book as a biography for somebody. So I asked her if she'd helped me as he jumped at the chance. So we spent another year writing. So at the moment, it's with the publisher. But that's something I just did not see coming. And being able to be creative in a different way is quite scary. It was interesting, it's blooming hard, I have to say writing is hot. Because it felt like I'd literally got all my artistic pneus and put it on my sleeve and said, hey, go have a look at that. What do you think? And it's like, I don't know if any good is it? And maybe that's part of being what creative is. There's there's bits that you've come out that you weren't expecting. And that's certainly what's happened with the writing. And, you know, art therapy does that for sure. And I think in some respects, all our therapy, whatever you do, has a piece of you in it and has something that if you're looking is telling you something, and that I think is the fascinating part about it. on every level.

Claire Waite Brown: 39:33

Yeah, definitely. Thanks ever so much. Leslie, thank you so much. How can people connect with you?

Unknown: 39:42

Oh, I've got a website, Lizzie wildman.com. And I'm on Instagram, and all them social media. I can't remember any of it. But there you go. I've also there was an article in ox magazine a couple of months ago, I think with a few pictures on there. So yeah, I'm out and about.

Claire Waite Brown: 40:01

That's fantastic. Thank you so much Leslie

Unknown: 40:04

will work with thank you very much to no problem.

Claire Waite Brown: 40:11

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