Tammy Euliano – medicine and mysteries

When the day job is a launch pad for creative exploration.
Tammy Euliano is an obstetric anesthesiologist who has transitioned from authoring a medical textbook with her mentor to penning a mystery novel, and in this episode we dive into her backstory, explore the challenges she has navigated, and discover how her writing journey has enriched her everyday life.
From a young child engrossed in books and music, to a successful medical professional, and finally, a passionate author, Tammy's journey is nothing short of inspiring. She shares with us her academic achievements, her switch to medicine, and her innovative work in obstetric anesthesia.
Tammy tells me how she made a daring career decision and gives an insight into her writing process and the inspirations behind her stories and characters.

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Researched, edited and produced by Claire Waite Brown
Music: Day Trips by Ketsa Undercover / Ketsa Creative Commons License Free Music Archive - Ketsa - Day Trips
Artworks: Emily Portnoi emilyportnoi.co.uk
Photo: Ella Pallet

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:33

After I finished medical school and residency, I did a one-year fellowship in obstetric anesthesia and my research project was making this very masculine, very ugly simulator into a pregnant woman. My project was trying to figure out how to alter the physiology, which was great, and so now they could do simulations of bad things that happen in pregnancy. Unlike medicine, where I felt it was a little bit competitive, I'd go to meetings where people are presenting their work and it's almost like, well, my work's more important than yours, whereas writing is not like that at all. It's what are you writing? Oh, that sounds amazing. And is there anything I can do to help you? Even you know, lee Child and all these big names are anxious to help you.

Speaker 1: 1:19

And now I go back and read that book and I go, oh my gosh, it's horrible. I mean I rewrote it and finally got it published, but my original version was just all over the place. So I'm proud of how much I've learned. But I also read other people and go, wow, I've still got a lot to learn. But just having that creative outlet, I think, expands my brain and gives me so many opportunities to exercise my curiosity.

Speaker 2: 1:43

Hi, I'm Claire, founder of Creativity Found, a community for creative learners and educators, connecting adults who want to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them do so with workshops, courses, online events and kits. For this podcast, I chat with people who have found or re-found their creativity as adults. We'll explore their childhood experiences of the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they now love and consider the barriers they may have experienced between the two. We'll also explore what it is that people value and gain from their new found artistic pursuits and how their creative lives enrich their practical, necessary everyday lives.

Speaker 2: 2:31

For this episode, I'm speaking with Tammy Juliano, an obstetric and ethologist easy for me to say who, after writing a medical textbook with her mentor, chose to take her writing in a very different direction. Hi, tammy, how are you? I'm great, thank you. You have had a busy and successful career in obstetric, anesthesia and academic medicine, as well as helping to develop the first full-scale human patient simulator, but you've also, more recently, tapped into your creative side, so tell me how you've done that.

Speaker 1: 3:09

I was writing a textbook of anesthesia with my mentor Gosh. It's been 10 years ago now and when we finished that he said let's write something else. This was an 80-year-old German, just wonderful, wonderful man. And so I'm thinking another textbook or something. And he says, how about a mystery? And I thought, wow, that would be fun. I always read mysteries and enjoyed them, but never really thought about, I mean, I guess I thought I could probably write one, but never thought I would ever get around to it. And then he and I sat down and started writing and I absolutely fell in love with it. And a couple years later I resigned my major positions and went down to 60% at the hospital and started writing and I absolutely love it.

Speaker 2: 3:57

That is so exciting. Well done you. So let's go back. Did you have a creative childhood? Were you encouraged in creative endeavors at home or at school when you were young?

Speaker 1: 4:11

I read voraciously as a child. In fact, myself and a couple other kids in our elementary school competed over who could read all the biographies in the library. I have no idea why we were so nerdy. I did some music. I had no ear, but I played in the band in middle school and high school and enjoyed that immensely. But sort of tapped out you know I was. I did what I wanted to do and then, in order to get better, it was going to take full time work and I was more of a get decent at everything but not focus on any one thing. I didn't do a lot of writing. My mom gave me some stories I wrote when I was like six that are just hilarious, but I don't remember writing in middle school or high school.

Speaker 2: 4:57

Were you pushed academically, perhaps at school?

Speaker 1: 5:02

I don't know if pushed is the right word. I was fortunate to be very successful academically. The way our school system worked played into the way I learned, and so I was. I was very successful without without having to work too very hard at it and played some sports just for fun, and I had just a wonderful, well rounded childhood with amazing family that was incredibly supportive of anything I wanted to do. But music was really my focus. Up until my first year of college I played in the marching band with the Gators. I actually went there on a music scholarship but then decided that I wanted to focus elsewhere. When I decided I wanted to get into medical school, then having that much band practice wasn't going to work, so so I quit playing.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Oh, wow. So you went to college on a music scholarship and not?

Speaker 1: 5:48

intending to be a professional musician, but it was something that I really, really enjoyed and and I had had some success, you know, at the county and state level, and and then I just got different interests when I when I got to college. I think that's pretty common.

Speaker 2: 6:05

Yeah, so tell me, what were those interests? What did you end up majoring in?

Speaker 1: 6:09

Well, I started out in engineering like my dad, which was very fitting my very sciencey mind. I wanted an explanation for everything and to be able to figure things out. And then I decided that I needed to do something remarkable, like cure cancer or something. So I started looking in the medical research and then was Ironiously, it turns out, but I was advised that if I wanted to do medical research I should have an MD, because then people would take me more seriously. So I said, okay, I'll go to medical school. It was not because I wanted to be a doctor, it was because I wanted to do medical research which is the wrong reason to go into medical school.

Speaker 2: 6:47

So did you continue with that? Then how did I did?

Speaker 1: 6:52

I didn't finish the engineering degree If one year left. I switched over to doing more medical stuff. So my degree is like an interdisciplinary studies it's sort of a strange degree. And then I got into medical school and was doing an MD-PhD program. So I was still doing very basic science research and eventually discovered that I really didn't like basic science research, that killing rats and doing some infinitesimally small piece of a much larger puzzle wasn't fun for me. The stuff I was doing would probably never amount to anything that changed the world or changed even a molecule of the world. So I shifted focus toward more applied science. And so that's when I got involved with the simulator, which was in its infancy at the time, and it was just pure serendipity.

Speaker 1: 7:43

I've had a lot of those events in my life where I was in medical school and I told my attending that I was going to drop out because I just really didn't enjoy it, and he hooked me up with somebody in anesthesia who was doing the simulator and it played into my engineering desire, right. So this is a computer controlled sort of robotic human person that you then can give different conditions to and then let people try to fix it. So they're practicing medicine without hurting patients. I loved it and the team was amazing. And so most people, while they're medical students, don't do anything else, but it was the thing that kept me interested in medical school. So so I would do my medical school stuff and then in the evenings I would go to the lab and and work on the simulator. And it was. It was wonderful. It was a great experience.

Speaker 2: 8:31

That sounds really interesting and also really clever.

Speaker 1: 8:38

What on earth?

Speaker 2: 8:40

is that? That sounds fabulous, but how on earth does such a thing work? Yeah, can you tell me any more about it?

Speaker 1: 8:49

So it's a. It's a huge mannequin on a bed. He breathes and consumes oxygen and produces carbon dioxide just like a normal human does, and he has pulses that you can feel at his wrists and in his neck and he has a mouth and an airway. So we can just like anesthesia, make him stop breathing and then put in a breathing tube and make sure he starts breathing again. And it has all the monitors attached so we can have our residents practice doing, you know, cpr but also the whole gamut of different issues that can happen in the operating room.

Speaker 1: 9:25

So for my fellowship, after I finished medical school and residency, I did a one year fellowship in obstetric anesthesia and my research project was making this very masculine, very ugly simulator into a pregnant woman. So I put on a wig and I gave her an empathy belly and, and then my project was trying to figure out how to alter the physiology, which was great, and so now they could do simulations of bad things that happen in pregnancy. So it taught me a lot of physiology and also gave me an avenue to get a lot of papers, because it was the very beginning. So I could do a lot of studies on teaching different methods using the simulator, and it was. It was just again serendipity. I was in the right place at the right time, and teaching happened to be something that I was relatively gifted at, and it's hard not to to get good evaluations when you're playing with high technology and letting the students do cool stuff. So so it worked out great for my career.

Speaker 2: 10:24

Yeah, tell me a bit more about the actual, with real people, obstetric anesthesia.

Speaker 1: 10:33

So primarily we do labor, epidurals and cesarean sections and deal with that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1: 10:38

I'm at a tertiary care center, which means we get all the sickest patients from a couple hundred mile radius around our hospital. So we do a lot of high risk women. Mostly, I'm teaching the residents how to do this, but I'm always, you know, there to take over if they, if they struggle and, interestingly, a lot of what I'm teaching is how to talk to women. The experience for the patient is so life changing, right. Anybody who has kids knows that and it's such a privilege to be involved in their care at that moment and to convince the residents that this is something they need to be respectful of and it's an interesting challenge to get them to understand it. And part of why I haven't retired because I'm the only OB faculty member who's had kids, that female that's had kids and I feel like I can sort of empathize a little bit better and maybe educate a little better about how we want to be spoken to and and that sort of stuff during our labor and deliveries.

Speaker 2: 11:39

That is so important and something that you probably don't learn, as you say, as you're reading your medical textbooks and Right.

Speaker 2: 11:46

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, when I was having my first child, I was in labor for a long time. It was a very different conversation between the midwives and then the actual doctor or consultant that would come in. Yeah, I've just realized that really it was my husband and I laughed a lot about what he said. The midwives are just so on it and wonderful. So you said you have children, you have that experience. How is all of this work fitting in with family life?

Speaker 1: 12:19

I am blessed with three wonderful children and an amazing husband, and he is not in medicine, so he was able to hold down the fort when I had to be at work long before they woke up, and I actually stopped taking call after we had our third kid in four years. Me being at the hospital for 24 hours just was not feasible, and that was one of the best decisions I ever made. It was a big pay cut, but worth it, and so I didn't really start writing until they were in high school and so I had been 80 plus hours a week at work all that time. But I did cut back. I took a half a day off a week when they were little and I would spend one afternoon with a kid each week with one kid. So they call it their mommy day and they still remember it.

Speaker 1: 13:05

They're all in their 20s now, in graduate school around the country and they still, when we get together, they talk about their mommy day and what they got to do, which is just wonderful. I highly recommend it. But they've always been supportive of, I think they're proud of me. But none of them wanted to go into medicine, which is a little bit telling because they saw me. They're normal sort of teenage years were when I was in a position of leadership in the residency. That didn't really suit my personality. It was in charge and and it just did not play to my strengths, and so they saw me as a little bit of a grumpy person for their teen years, when they were thinking about what they wanted to be when they grew up, and so I'm not sure any of them would have really enjoyed medicine, but but I regret that I didn't show them happiness during that time as much as I should, yeah, when you were at your busiest and they're at their possibly quite impressionable stages.

Speaker 1: 14:02

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2: 14:05

Tell me about your mentor then. That started this whole thinking about actually writing fiction and how you met and how you started.

Speaker 1: 14:14

Such an amazing man and someday I'm gonna write his biography, if I, if I can. He was born in Germany and World War Two happened and he was orphaned as a 13, 14 year old young man in Germany during World War Two with a Jewish last name. He ended up getting conscripted into the German Navy and served a couple of years. When he got out he put himself through medical school and then came to the US and decided he didn't know enough. So he put himself through medical school again at Harvard, did an anesthesia residency and was immediately hired to become the chairman of the new anesthesia department at University of Florida as a new graduate Just crazy story has eight kids. I met him when I was a medical student and then when I joined the faculty, he was very he was very involved with the simulator and so when I started on the simulator he sort of naturally became my mentor and he pushed a lot, which was great and encouraged.

Speaker 1: 15:17

I almost didn't get hired at UF. It was at a very bad time for anesthesia and he's really the reason I got hired and just frequently checked in with me, saw what I was doing, what do you want to be? And when I came to him and said you know, we don't have a medical student level anesthesia book. He said let's write one. And I was like, do what?

Speaker 1: 15:39

And so that's where our real bond came, because that took a couple years. We had to propose it and then, as we wrote it, we would each write a chapter. Then we would sit together and read each other's chapters and edit, and the book is an introductory text, so it has a lot of information, but at a not incredibly deep level, and we decided to add humor to it and silly footnotes about the people involved that did all these things in medicine, which he was always a history buff, and so we just had a great time working together for multiple years and sadly he passed away when we were just starting our mystery book. But yeah, he had a huge impact on my life and actually two of his sons were on our faculty as well and I've worked with both of them a lot.

Speaker 2: 16:25

Oh, that's brilliant, Such a lovely relationship. Tell me then about your continuing to take on the fiction writing, the mystery book.

Speaker 1: 16:37

So when he passed away I didn't feel right continuing the book he and I were writing. But he said let's write a mystery. And I started to write and very quickly went holy crap, I don't know how to write because I'd written a ton of medical papers and a text book, but that's nothing like writing fiction. And so I went back and read a few books and went oh boy, there's a lot to this. I thought, well, I'll just go on Amazon and buy a book on how to write. There's probably four or five. I'll pick the one with the highest number of stars. Of course there are thousands, an entire book just written on point of view or setting or whatever.

Speaker 1: 17:15

But I picked one on writing a mystery and read it and the scientist in me wanted it to be a formula that I had to follow and it so isn't right. It's Well, what's your character going to do? I have no idea she could do anything. She could go anywhere. This world can be anything. I want to make it. It's such a different taps into such a different part of your brain than medicine does, and I think I was ready for that.

Speaker 1: 17:40

And so I read a bunch of craft books, I went to meetings. I went to a course in Colorado with a really wonderful teacher and met several other women who were also at the beginning of their careers and we this is now eight years ago, I think, and we still talk about once a month and we get together once a year to just write together. So I wrote the book I wanted to write, which was about a topic that had interested me since medical school, which was end of life and how should that happen and I wrote that and I thought I did pretty well and I submitted it to a contest and I was a finalist. So I went to the meeting where that was going to be announced and I didn't win. But I you know that positive feedback was amazing. And now I go back and read that book and I go, oh my gosh, it's horrible. I mean, I rewrote it and finally got it published, but my original version was just all over the place. So I'm proud of how much I've learned. But I also read other people and go, wow, I've still got a lot to learn, which is fun I love. I'm a very curious person, which is a challenge, because then right now I'm working on a book that has a historical bent in it and I'll realize an hour later that I'm still on Wikipedia reading about the history of Boston in the 1600s and I go wait, wait, I got to stop.

Speaker 1: 18:54

But it's just such a. I don't know if rewarding is the right word, but it puts your mind in a different place and you, these characters, keep invading your, your thoughts, and you're like that's not even a real person and I created them in my head. And yet they're like a different person. And the community is amazing. Writers are some of the most kind, supportive, unlike medicine, where I felt it was a little bit competitive. I'd go to meetings where people are presenting their work and it's almost like, well, my work's more important than yours, whereas writing is not like that at all. It's, what are you writing? Oh, that sounds amazing. And is there anything I can do to help you? Even you know, lee Child and all these big names are anxious to help you. It's just a great, great environment.

Speaker 2: 19:42

Yeah, that's lovely. I've heard other writers, other guests who are writers, talk about the way the characters can change as well and they start doing things that you hadn't planned for them to do and they come alive on the page.

Speaker 1: 19:57

It's the strangest thing. Yeah, so, like, like, like my authors, my main character started out being me, and so she's an anesthesiologist and she does obstetric anesthesia and she teaches, and so me 30 years ago. And and then she got way cooler than me, you know sort of the me I wish I was. And then all of a sudden she just started going um, no, I would not do that. I'm like well, yes, you would, because I made you and I can therefore put you wherever I want. But it wasn't true to the character, Right, it's so just psychologically just fascinating. How you know, I see my world very similar to my current world, but it has some distinctive differences that are just so fun to create and try to get on the page, which is the challenging part, so other people can see what you see.

Speaker 2: 20:42

Yeah, brilliant. You had an epiphany and we love an epiphany on creativity found. Do you think things were percolating? Percolating leading up to that, and what changes did you make when you actually came to this realization?

Speaker 1: 21:00

So I was definitely not loving my job at the time when I was residency program director. I had 88 residents that I was shepherding through and I had no assistant program directors and I was in charge of basically everything related to their training and the residents wanted one thing and the faculty wanted 180 degree opposite and every decision I made angered one or the other and I just knew it wasn't what I was good at and I was not a happy gator and I've been doing that for about four years. My daughter was about to graduate high school. My sister had a medical emergency which gratefully she did fine with. It was our 25th wedding anniversary.

Speaker 1: 21:41

It was just a lot of things going on 20th wedding anniversary and my husband said we need to go on a trip for our anniversary. So we went out to Arizona and we were hiking in Sedona. And you know I'm not a woo woo person. I don't believe in crystals and all the crazy stuff that was going on out there, but I absolutely remember the moment, as we were hiking, that I went.

Speaker 1: 22:02

I don't have to do this Just because this is the next step, the next rung on the ladder. I've been climbing my whole career. I don't have to keep going. You know, the next step would have been a chairmanship or something like that, and I talked to my husband about it. We went home and I told my chairman that I was thinking this and she was very encouraging and within two weeks I was no longer the residency program director. I gave up running the OB anesthesia division. I started closing up all my research projects and a couple months later I was down to 60% from basically 120% and I was writing every second. I was not otherwise occupied. It was a very whirlwind change of my life, but it's the best thing I've ever done.

Speaker 2: 23:32

Good for you. That is a wonderful realization that you're going along a path and then you realize that doesn't have to be the path. I don't have to keep going along that path.

Speaker 1: 23:42

And I think many people would feel that's quitting. Right, I've got a goal and I didn't get it. Not that I had a goal to be a chairman, but I'm on a path and I'm going to quit that path. And somebody pointed out that it's not a quitting, it's a pivoting, and I went that is the perfect word for it, because it is. It's just because you're on one ladder doesn't mean there's not another ladder that would suit you better. I didn't quit to sit around and, you know, eat bonbons. I achieved enough on one road and now I'm on a different road, and the difference in this road is I might never achieve anything in medicine.

Speaker 1: 24:17

I knew that if I worked hard enough, I could achieve what I wanted in writing. You could write forever and never get published, and you don't have as much control over your future, I think, as I did in medicine, and so that was a little bit challenging. But Then you realize you don't have to right. I read this book much more recently 4,000 weeks yeah, 4,000 weeks by Oliver Berkman. It's great, I would highly recommend it. But basically he says you know, your life is short and nothing you accomplish is really gonna last more than a generation or two. So you need to decide what you want out of life and not what you think. You want three generations from now to think about what you had in your life, and it's a revelatory, I think.

Speaker 2: 25:06

You've mentioned that you have had your books published. Did that come around easily?

Speaker 1: 25:11

naturally, no and no, my first one I queried. I went to pitchfests. You know I would get agents who wanted to read 50 pages and then ones who wanted to read the full book, and then they would either you hear nothing or they would say not quite right, or whatever. And so then I wrote a second book, completely different but another topic that was fascinating to me, and queried that one, and you know the rejections mounted in the 70s, 80s. And then I went to a big mystery meeting called BoucherCon. It happened to be in St Petersburg, so that's close to me and I volunteered to be a panel master for a medical panel. Again, this is just serendipity. So I met my panelists and they were wonderful, amazing people, and one of them is a family practitioner who writes books but also runs her own publishing company with her husband. And we finished the panel and afterwards she said so what do you write? And I told her about my books and said you know I don't have an agent, whatever. And she says well, just go ahead and send it to me.

Speaker 1: 26:15

So this is 2019, october of 2019. And I sent her both the ones that I'd finished and she liked one of them and offered to publish it like three months later. So again, if I hadn't met her, cause they don't take unagented manuscripts, you have to have an agent. And I didn't have an agent. But because I met her, because I went out of my comfort zone and offered to be a panelist on whatever, and it was just wonderful. And then she said I see this as a series. And I went really it had never occurred to me that it could be a series. So I wrote the second one and that one was published last January and I've been working on the third one, although it's I'm having trouble with the third one. So I'm writing something else right now, just for fun, and then I'll go back to it.

Speaker 2: 26:59

It can probably help, can't it, to go and write something else.

Speaker 1: 27:02

I think so. You might have ideas to come back to I think so, and I would still love to get an agent and maybe get published by one of the big five, you know, to get the added exposure. Not for the money but because I I think I have something to say and I'd like to share it with a wider audience.

Speaker 2: 27:21

Yeah, yeah. So tell me about what you said about this series now, that you weren't expecting it to be a series. So what? And how do you write now? Like, how do you fit it into your days because you're doing your 60, 40 work relationship? Also, though, what inspires you and what benefits, outside of enjoying the writing, do you get from being able to express yourself creatively now?

Speaker 1: 27:46

Well, my writing looks like usually the days that I'm not in the operating room. I write pretty much all day, you know, in between taking the dog for a walk and podcasts and those sorts of things, and my actual version of writing keeps evolving. So whether I'm gonna be a, they call them panzers or plotters right, one writes out exactly what they're gonna talk about and then the other one just sits down and starts writing and lets the characters go whatever direction. I've tried both. I am definitely better at the plotting side. So for the book I just started, I actually worked with a book coach and we did four iterations of a plot and now it's, I think, 15 pages long, and so, as I'm writing, it's coming together so much faster than my other books where I tried to only plot four or five chapters ahead and ended up in no man's land, not really sure where to go with the book.

Speaker 1: 28:41

So I write at a computer. I also have a huge whiteboard behind me. You can see where I do mind mapping. Sometimes you know where. You put a topic up and then you write all the things that are related to it just to see if I can trigger something.

Speaker 1: 28:54

I do a lot of handwritten, sort of like a letter from my character to me in first person for that character, saying I Came from here, this is what shaped my life and they. It's really interesting to have a I don't know, maybe it's diagnosable but to have like this different voice talking to you about things and you learn so much about your characters. It's nothing that's gonna go in the book, but it it educates and informs the book. I get my ideas mostly from things that happen at work or Things I've heard in the news, or this third book in my series. My main character goes to Haiti on a mission trip, which is something I did a number of years ago, and so I just thought that would be really interesting to talk about the pros and cons of medical mission trips and that sort of stuff. What was the rest of your question?

Speaker 2: 29:42

Benefits. You know the benefits.

Speaker 1: 29:45

You know, I don't know. I think obviously my stress level is far less than it was when I was working at the hospital all the time, I think naturally I'm Lean toward introversion, not nearly as much as many writers, but having more alone time where I'm writing is, I think, better for me than committee meetings and that sort of stuff. But just having that creative outlet, I think, expands my brain and gives me so many opportunities to exercise my curiosity, looking things up for a purpose, and I also read a lot more than I than I did before, and now I can say, well, I'm reading, for for my job, I have to read. Instead of feeling like I was, I was indulging myself. Now I feel like I'm expanding myself, which is which is wonderful.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Yeah, but it's still weird, isn't it, that you feel like you have to justify something that you're terrible, yeah, it's just terrible yeah okay, moving on then. What about plans for the future?

Speaker 1: 30:46

So right now I'm working on a standalone that is a little bit historical. It's modern day. Of course. It's a guy who's gonna go to medical school sort of reluctantly because he's more interested in history and his mentor is actually another one of my mentors from my own training and it brings in the Salem witch trials and there's a big historical component to it which I'm just having a blast writing it. It's actually based on a short story I had published a number of years ago, but the whole Salem witch trials and could ergot poisoning have been part of it, and then Having a modern link to that is it's just really, really fun.

Speaker 1: 31:25

I have a short story that I have due in a couple months. That's a noir which I've never written before. So I'm exercising that muscle, learning how to write something a little darker, which is not my nature. I tend to throw humor in everything. So I keep having to delete, delete, delete, delete, and. And then the third in the Kate Downey series is going to happen as soon as I get enough of a break that I can figure out how it ends. I'm just so blessed with opportunities that I wish other people could could enjoy as well, and then my kids, of course, visiting them, and one of them just graduated and I've got one child with an actual job. It's amazing.

Speaker 2: 32:04

Yeah, I've got one of those just back from finishing her masters and looking for jobs, looking for big girl grown up work now.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Yes, that's what my, that's what my daughter calls it. I'm a big girl, I have a job.

Speaker 2: 32:18

Fabulous. How can people connect with you?

Speaker 1: 32:21

Tell me my website is my first initial and last name to Julianocom, and I'm on Facebook and a little bit on Instagram. I don't love Social media, but if anybody emails me, I'll absolutely email back to Juliano at gmailcom and also through the website. Yeah, I'd love connecting with readers. I love doing book clubs, zooming in and talking about the issues of the books, so I would love to hear from people.

Speaker 2: 32:49

Fabulous. Thank you so much for talking with me today. Tammy, Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 1: 32:53

You're very welcome.

Speaker 2: 32:56

Thanks so much for listening to Creativity Found. If your podcast app has the facility, please leave a rating and review to help other people find us. On Instagram and Facebook, follow Act Creativity Found podcast and on Pinterest, look for Act Creativity Found. And finally, don't forget to check out creativityfoundcouk, the website connecting adults who want to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them tap into their creativity.