Making time for art. Jackie Sanders primarily works with abstract, geometric shapes, and bold colors using acrylic paint on panels. She creates visually interesting pieces that can be taken at surface value or can communicate deeper concepts and symbolism, allowing viewers to choose what they want to see in the art. As a child, Jackie was supported and encouraged creatively by her family, who even helped her turn her bedroom closet into a mini studio. She studied art at Virginia Tech, where she also took advantage of internship programs to learn outside of her subject. Post-graduation, Jackie experienced a dip in energy and confidence while attempting to navigate a competitive job market – fitting creativity in at the time was difficult, so her art took a back seat. Having moved to North Carolina with no job offers and working multiple part-time jobs to make ends meet, Jackie eventually landed a full-time job at an awards company, which was enjoyable but demanding on her time and energy. After a while something had to give. Jackie realized she needed to make space to allow creativity back into her life. Find out how she did that in this episode.
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Unknown:
Without that deadline, it's a very empowering feeling because no one's telling you what to do, which is great. But also, no one's telling you what to do. So you don't have to do anything. And it took me honestly about four or five years to really start realising that I was missing that in my life. What does a creative process look like for me when I have a full time job, and for me, that meant waking up earlier in the day to prioritise it before the work day. And you realise how beneficial it is once you commit to doing it again. But when you're on the after parts of a burnout, you kind of forget how good it feels to be in a creative practice.
Claire Waite Brown:
Hi, I'm Claire, founder of creativity found that community for creative learners and educators connecting adults who wants to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them do so with workshops, courses, online events and kits. For this podcast, I chat with people who have found or refound their creativity as adults, will explore their childhood experiences of the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they now love. And consider the barriers they may have experienced between the two. We'll also explore what it is that people value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits, and how their creative lives enrich their practical, necessary, everyday lives. For this episode, I'm speaking with Jacqueline Sanders, who has found a way to balance her creative pursuits with a full time job, and is a champion of community over competition. Hi, Jackie, how are you?
Unknown:
I'm good. How are you?
Claire Waite Brown:
I'm very well, thank you. Can you start by telling me how you like to get creative.
Unknown:
I feel like I've always been a creative always identified as an artist. And so it comes out in many different ways. Predominantly, I do abstract geometric paintings. So original paintings, but I also love digital design, writing, creating audio and visual content through my own podcast. So so many creative outlets, as I'm sure a lot of you and your listeners can relate to.
Claire Waite Brown:
Yeah, when you were a child, were creative activities encouraged at home at school.
Unknown:
Yeah, they were definitely encouraged. I feel very, very lucky to have such a supportive family, especially my parents from a very young age. I think when kids are little people always encouraged whatever their interests are typically, whether it's sports, whether it's the arts, but typically, then, as we all get older and get into late middle school, in high school, thinking about colleges, sometimes that narrative can shift a little bit of okay, well, you have to think, quote unquote, practically, and what do you want to do for real. And so I feel very fortunate that that was a not that that wasn't a conversation, but they still understood that the arts is a very amazing field to go into. And so they kind of double down with being supportive of it. Even in middle school. I would always take over the dining room table with like, whatever art project or scrapbooking idea I had at the time. So finally, because cleaning up every night before dinner, I am sure was getting to be kind of a pain for them or asking me to clean up. They actually let me turn my bedroom closet into an art studio. So I was always like a tomboy athlete growing up and so I'm like This closet is just full of like dresses and nice clothes that I barely ever wear it which in my mind, I'm like this is just a waste of space. I never use it. They basically took out all my clothes, put them in a dresser. And then we built a desk inside of the closet. So it had built in Shelves a working station and then you can just close the door when you're done and whatever project creative chaos I had going on. You just close the door and it's looks organised and taken care
Claire Waite Brown:
of very clever. Yeah. And so it was
Unknown:
actually like my dad's idea, but he was always he's an architect. So my dad's a licenced architect. My mom used to work in sales. And then when they got married, she does the business side of the architecture firm. So definitely that light left brain right brain power duo, so to speak. And so he's like, Okay, if you have this idea, let's get out graph paper. You have to be the one measuring this space. One square is six inches like establish your scale all his little tricks the time that when you're a kid, you're just a sponge, not realising that you're really learning practical life skills. And it was so fun, like having a vision proving to them that like this is going to work, what supplies are we going to need to make it work? And then bringing it to life was something that was really fostered when I was young. And so wanting to major in art was not really a question. It was definitely very encouraged by them. And I think they also knew that I am very type A and organised and have a strong work ethic. So they're like, she'll figure it out, just foster the creativity and her type a work ethic, we'll make it happen.
Claire Waite Brown:
Oh, that's brilliant. And how did you find majoring in art then? And what kind of thing did you do?
Unknown:
Yeah, so I went to Virginia Tech, which is a large university in Virginia. And I picked the school because I really liked that it wasn't a quote unquote, traditional art school. A big focus of their programme is the merging of technology with the arts, which I really liked. And I love the idea of being able to have friends in other majors and potentially double major or minor in other things, that would be the more quote unquote practical so I could take marketing classes or business classes in addition to the arts. So I absolutely loved my programme. It was amazing school. I feel like my programme was small enough. So you like you knew everyone, but it was in a big enough university that you could use it for other opportunities, whether it's internships, so there was a city just like 40 minutes away from our college town, so you could like commute there to work at their museums. And so that was a big thing for me when I was a student was understanding that it's your job as a student to like, show up and do well and learn and get good grades. But I also basically made it my mission when I was at college to kind of like, soak up as many experiences as I could and add as many tools to my tool belt, so to speak. So getting as much experience as possible, to either sharpen my skills and make it something that I can market myself as when I graduate, put it on the resume, or what's honestly was more beneficial was learning about those jobs that you don't like and learning. You know what I'm going to do this, let's say a semester long internship, working in children's education and art museums, and realising what does that mean? What does the scheduler look like? What is the workload look like? Meeting people that are doing that for their career and hearing? Where are the exciting points in their day? Where are the points of tension and just like being a sponge, in all areas, or as many as I could jam in with experiences, so that I wasn't going into the workforce blind. And I think leveraging that student card is super, super helpful. Every experience asking yourself, okay, I may not be thriving and living my best life, like loving this experience. But what can I get out of it? What did I learn? What skills can I learn that I can apply down the road? Or at the very least, you have a little bit more empathy and compassion and understanding. When you're working on a team in someone's in, let's say, the education role or the curatorial role. And so you can put yourself in their shoes, because even if it's a surface level, freshman year internship understanding of what that role does, it's a lot more than you would have had if you didn't have that experience.
Claire Waite Brown:
Yeah, absolutely. That bit of understanding. Well, this all sounds very positive. You see, Jackie, you see you doing maybe the bits of business stuff at college, and then having all of these other opportunities and experiences. So therefore, I assume that when college finished, you sailed off into a
Unknown:
perfect Kareem Maria blocks. Just exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's how everyone graduates right, just the perfect job right away fighting off job offers left and right. No, I wish it was that way. And I think that especially for creatives, but I mean, honestly, anyone when they graduate from a university or achieve any type of big milestone, there's often that dip right afterwards because it's almost just this huge energy boost and you have all this competence and you're prepared and have this experience. And I'm like, Yes, like, I am like the most marketable Art major that ever was like, you kind of gotta have that inflated mindset even when you try not to. And then you realise it's a super competitive market. And especially if you want to go into museums or galleries, the more behind the curtain side of the art scene, which is what I originally wanted to do, there are only a handful of positions that open up every year for these credible institutions. And everyone is applying for them. And people that have PhD experiences or 10 years experience in the field, it's not really a question of if you could do the job well, but it's just like any other industry, it's competitive. And so I definitely had a big, creative burnout after college as well, because it was kind of like the two different things right, the more behind the curtain admin side of the art world that I was interested in. But from an art standpoint, I didn't have homework assignments anymore, you don't have a professor saying this project is doing this day, or here's this big milestone of a graduate exhibition that you're working towards. And so without that deadline, it's a very empowering feeling, because no one's telling you what to do, which is great. But also, no one's telling you what to do. So you don't have to do anything, which is, with great power comes great responsibility mindset. And so I definitely from a creative standpoint, and a huge burnout after I graduated, end up getting my master's in museum studies. And so I was more in that like admin, business brain than my creative artmaking brain. And it took me honestly, about four or five years to really start realising that I was missing that in my life, as we mentioned, an artist who was always making things when I was growing up. But I was always a type A artists are very organised, very structured. And so then when I moved to a new city and got a full time day job, it was kind of learning what my life would look like down here in North Carolina. Now where I live, I was trying to figure out, like, how does a creative practice fit into this puzzle piece, because again, no one's telling you that you have to do it. And it's never a convenient time to add something to your plate, right, we all have a million things to do responsibilities, commitments that pay the bills, and adding one more thing to my plate felt feel very overwhelming, honestly. And I think a lot of artists feel that because it's very momentum based for many people. And you realise how beneficial it is once you commit to doing it again. But when you're on the after parts of a burnout, you kind of forget how good it feels to be in a creative practice, or you forget the benefits. And it just feels like one more thing that you have to do, which can feel very draining.
Claire Waite Brown:
We're gonna talk more. And this is a subject I'm quite interested in about how now you you have your art alongside your full time job in digital marketing. But tell me a bit more about the job you have jobs you were doing before when you were a bit Higgledy Piggledy about, what am I going to do and how you got to the digital marketing that you do now?
Unknown:
Yeah, that's a great question. So like I said, I moved to North Carolina, I had saved up enough money while I was in college to say, Okay, I have six months worth of living expenses, and I'm gonna hope for the best and apply to jobs as much as I can. I moved here with no job offers and just kind of like scrambled to make it work, as many of us do, of doing four or five part time jobs juggling that schedule was its own unique set of stressors, but then ultimately, landed a full time job at an awards company, making corporate awards. So I just walked in one day with my resume. And they're like, We don't have a job opening right now. But we want to make one because we want to have you on the team, which is great. So I had to wait a little while but it was a super amazing experience. I worked there for about four years, doing corporate awards. So it's kind of that good balance of hands on craftsmanship of using big technology, UV printers, co2 lasers sandblasters. So if you think of basically anything that can be personalised or make a mark on it, we did so everything from engraved cutting boards to etching crystal to any type of etching on stone, UV printing, banners, all these different things. So it was very creative and its own way. But it was more of the production business side. It wasn't necessarily it was a different type of fulfilling, which I think many creatives can and relate to especially if you go into something that's more client base that's like graphic design, or you're taking some type of input from other people, which is very exciting, but it's different than your creative output. And so I realised after like three or four years of working there that I kind of grown in a way that the size of that company I couldn't, I didn't have anywhere else to grow, I felt kind of kept there. And I wasn't committing to my own creative practice at the time. And so I ended up before leaving that position really realise, okay, what is a creative process look like for me when I have a full time job. And for me, that meant waking up earlier in the day to prioritise it before the work day, because in that job, and in that industry, there was also more times than not days where I would work later. And it was a small team and you unite together and everyone does a little bit of every job, which is great for like adding skills to your tool belt, as we talked about earlier, you learn about marketing, you learn about business, you learn about pricing, and production of these pieces. But it was very time demanding, I didn't feel like I had ownership over especially in the evenings of, well, I didn't think I'd be working late today. And I was gonna go home and work on this painting. But now I'm working two hours later. And by the time I get home at nine o'clock after working 11 hour day, like I'm exhausted, this is not going to happen. And so I found I kept pushing back my creative time. And like I said before, it's never convenient to do more things in your schedule. And so I found that if I didn't have the time, I had to make the time. And no one else is going to be asking you to hang out first thing in the morning. So I found that that was the best time of I need to prioritise my creative practice. First, I need to put this as a priority. And then the rest of the day, it may be influenced by outside people by outside customers. So prioritising that in the morning was huge for me. And then ultimately realising that I wanted to paint even more, I wanted to invest in my art and my creative business even more, which ultimately led to me finding a remote job doing digital marketing, because that's something I had been doing for the awards company that I've been working with running their social media, writing newsletters, things like that, and with my own art business. And so I was basically able to leverage skills that I had developed at that day job and with my own art business to find a job that has a lot more flexibility, I can work from home, and they're very flexible with hours of if I want to meet with a collector at my studio, I don't have to like take the afternoon off work if I want to work while paint is drying, and then I do some day job work and then get back to painting. And so really realising that was an important part of balancing my creative practice and day job for me, which didn't happen overnight. It was kind of a year and a half transition of figuring out okay, what elements of my life? Do I have no control over in terms of a day job or commitments or family and friend responsibilities, which we love But realising Hey, what things do I want to change to better serve and have more flexibility with my creative practice, which definitely took time but has been probably one of the best things that I found that I could do for my creative energy? For sure.
Claire Waite Brown:
Yeah, I'm seeing a theme running through this whole episode, which is your practical nature.
Unknown:
Yeah, I assign that to like, my mom's side of my gene pool. If she's very like business like reverse engineer this goal, okay, this is ultimately what you want to do. So how are we gonna, like backtrack that to get there. So like, leaving my previous job for examples, like okay, now I want more time in the studio. But if I'm staying in this industry, then it's got to be you have to show up and physically produce product inherently that's not flexible. So what other skills am I good at? What things do I enjoy doing and I love learning about anyway. And so I just started like, binge listening to podcasts and YouTube series, and audio books in the industry that I wanted to shift to. So I could learn and get experience and then use that to leverage myself into a very flexible industry, digital marketing. And that was also worth noting right around COVID. So a lot of industries were moving remote and planting that idea of like I never would have thought about working remote prior to COVID. And I think for people We're looking for that flexibility it has been super advantageous in that way with, of course, all of the negative things that COVID has had, I think it has also a silver lining Bennett's made a lot of people reevaluate where their priorities are, how they're spending their time and where it is necessary to be in the office for certain things. But where is it not necessary, like I'm actually way more productive when I work from home. Because again, I am an extrovert, I just want to talk and hang out and socialise. And so if I'm trying to then do work while socialising, like that's not helpful. But if I'm just focusing, I can crank out eight hours worth of work that I would have had in an office day, probably in half that time, at home, so they actually get like twice the amount of work for me. So it's a win win, I guess.
Claire Waite Brown:
Creativity found.co.uk is the place to go to find workshops, courses, supplies, kits, and books to help you get creative. So if you're looking for your own creativity, found experience, go have a browse to see what's on offer so far. And if you can help adults to find their new creative passion, please get in touch on social media, or through the contact details on the website. I'm gonna come back to how you work physically, what you know where your creative flow comes from. But tell me since we're on this vein of talking about working remotely, let's skip to the studio. So you've joined a studio. Yeah. Tell me about that, why you joined a studio, how that helps you how that works for you. And is that way you do both jobs as well, so to speak.
Unknown:
Yeah, so I have a community facing studio in downtown Raleigh at a place called art space. And so art spaces a larger nonprofit has been around for decades. And back in the 1980s, they bought this warehouse and converted it into galleries and artists studios. So there's over 30 different artists that have studios there. If you're in the Raleigh, North Carolina area, please come by and check it out. Because it's truly amazing. And it's essentially having like artists as co workers in a way, it's basically two long hallways upstairs and downstairs very open floor plan, beautiful light with huge windows, which is amazing. But every room is a different artists studio. So there may be a sculptor, and then a jewellery maker, and then a oil painting, landscaper, and then abstract geometric artists like I do. All types of artists, all range of backgrounds, a whole range of diversity in life experiences, culture, and mediums that we work in. And so it really is one and amazing asset for our community. A big part of the mission is to demystify the creative process. And as artists, we all love museums and galleries. But it can often remove the artists themselves from the work that the viewer is experiencing. Like, of course, you have artists statements, and you have maybe an artist talk here and there. But if someone off the street is coming to the gallery, they may have an amazing experience with the artwork, but they don't have that personal connection with the artist. And so art spaces mission is really to bring the artists and the community together. So the community can come in, see completed works that are for sale on the wall, but also works in progress. That's where we make all of our artwork. So you see, here's my wall of paint, here's my sketches that are on the table, here's three pieces that are in progress. But if you come back two months from now, they'll probably be done and hanging on the wall with a price tag. So they get to talk to us interact with us and really put personalities and stories behind the artwork itself. I used to go to art space all the time as a self labelled art space fan girl. And I had a studio at my apartment which by Studio, I mean I had a two bedroom apartment, one bedroom, I turned into where all my paintings and creative process happened. And then it was a goal of mine in 2020 to have a studio there within the next three to five years. I was like you know what, this is the year I'm going all in with my art business was January 2020. And then, of course the world shifted a bit and I actually moved in in July of 2020. The benefits of being community facing have been super, super helpful. Getting feedback from the community constantly also growing my audience also the community that inherently builds with local members of the Raleigh community that come in but also between artists that are now my neighbours. So they're essentially your creative coworkers so to speak of, hey, like I'm having problem with this one painting, do you mind coming in? Like, give me some feedback? Or oh, like, what are you working on today? And that may inspire an idea, hey, where do you go to get your paintings photographed, like sharing resources, sharing skills, and, and it's cool having a physical space for fellow artists to do that. Because often, we are isolated in our creative process. At times you have access to social media, which can be an amazing networking tool, if you are able to use it, please follow me on Instagram because I love hyping up other creatives and seeing what they're doing. So there are ways to definitely connect with other artists. But having a community facing studio is definitely been a huge pivot point in my creative process for sure.
Claire Waite Brown:
I completely agree. We are very keen on community creativity found and I have a the membership of people that have businesses that teach their creative passion. But like you say, even though they have their workshops, or have some will be online courses and kits, so that's quite isolating. You're not necessarily meeting other people. And you do need to meet when you have wobbles, or when you feeling like hey, come and cheer me on because it's really good things happened. And yeah, and it is inspiration as well. You come up with new ideas, collaborations, possibly all sorts. Yeah, yeah, it's really important.
Unknown:
And I feel like as creatives like being cheerleaders for each other is so important, have kind of that mindset of like rising tides lifts all ships, right. And I think that's one thing that has been interesting being at art space, where you're physically next to what some people may see as your quote, unquote, competition. If someone's looking to buy a painting for their house, then you can kind of have two ways of looking at it of like any other artist, whether they're similar in style to you, or even a different style is your competition for that sale, right. But me and my co hosts of the podcast that I host called the level of artists podcast, one of the pillars that we connected on really early on in our friendship, and now is a huge part of our podcast and art space as a whole, is that idea of community over competition. Okay, let's say there's one collector, in this example, looking for a painting for above their couch in their living room, if they come down to art space, and they look in every artists studio talk to each of us. And if they buy a painting from one of my neighbours, I still see that as a win, because anytime an individual collector, anytime a corporation accompany an office building, invest in sees the value in investing in in owning original artwork, then that's the ripple effect of anytime their friends come in, and they share Oh, well, this artist does this. And this, this, here's the story behind it, it's recognising the value of the work that we do. And the value we bring in society that I think is a collective one where that wasn't the right connection for me, they may not connect with my style, but it's still a win for the idea of original artwork as a whole. Which means that more people which will be my feature collectors will come in and interact. And it can be hard at times when you apply for an exhibition and you don't get in or you really want to have a solo show and you putting an application after application and just getting the not now rejection letters. But it is a great time to be a creative honestly and having the connection to be able to like message people on Instagram and just ask questions or just share what you're doing. Especially if you are an introvert or more isolating your creative process by choice of being able to share this is what my studio looks like. This is what I'm working on right now. And then sharing it with 100 people on Instagram 200 People that goes into a big rabbit hole of vanity metrics and marketing on social media, but realising like the old masters hundreds of years ago, if they could be like wait a minute, I couldn't be in my studio. And within two minutes I could have 400 people see this image that's so cool. Like the time that we live in as artists it can feel very overwhelming because we are then also expected to do all that or you have to have a website and a newsletter and social media and it can be very overwhelming. But I like to see that just it's a very empowering way like you get to share your story you get to tell people about the work you make. And they get to follow along without having to physically be at your studio all the time.
Claire Waite Brown:
Yeah. Now it can be a double edged sword just in the way that you can put pressure on yourself by looking at other people. But also you're right as well in that can be inspired by other people. And it does all feed into a positive. Tell me about your style, then your materials? And does it bear any relation to what you were doing a college, for example.
Unknown:
So yeah, so the work I do is primarily abstract geometric. So a lot of bold colours, a lot of sharp, crisp lines. And I work primarily with acrylic paint on panel. So I'm shifting my style a little bit. Now I just wrapped up a big project, it was a three foot by three foot panel series, 12 of them that's on exhibition right now, which is very exciting to kind of get it out of the studio gets a new mental fresh air, so to speak. So right now exploring the idea of working on Canvas exploring the idea of going in non square compositions. Yeah, it's primarily abstract geometric, and I love being able to use geometric shapes and colour to represent a lot of very, like abstract concepts I've always liked the idea of, and that's really what I was exploring in high school and in college as well. Of course, you have assignments of a figure drawing class or like specific things, we have to go more representational. But I was always that artists that rather than doodling like cartoon characters, or nature scenes on my homework papers, I was doing like geometric shapes, I feel like a huge influence of it was my parents architecture business. So I kind of grew up on the drafting table, sketching with a ruler and a straight edge. And now they're very much big elements of my work. So definitely it stuck. I love the idea of creating like visually interesting pieces that you can take for surface value. They're very, like bold colour hard edge, the quote unquote, like, oh, that just looks cool. And you can keep it that surface value, or there's deeper concepts and symbolism that I have, like, what does this texture mean? Was this colour mean how these spaces interact? So if you want to impose meaning on it, you can, or you can just say, Oh, that looks cool, and move on, which I like. People can kind of choose how far they see which I feel like is relevant with any art, but especially with abstract geometric,
Claire Waite Brown:
yeah, definitely seeing it differently seeing it your way. And there's a way it's painted that way. It's seen by the artists, as were seen by various viewers, I was going to mention actually, the parental influence when you said about the graph paper for making your closet studio. That's that ring some bells.
Unknown:
Yeah, and especially in my studio, any of my online presence, I typically post a lot about my sketches, which is normally how my creative process starts, it starts by a sketch or a journal entry or something very tangible off the digital screen. Because, as you mentioned, I do have a full time job in digital marketing. So there are definitely more efficient ways I could probably have my creative practice. My co host of my podcast keeps trying to get on me about like, you need to be sketching on an iPad, you can make renderings and mock ups, which would be amazing. And I work in geometric. So having like, these are all parallel, equally spaced geometric lines, like that makes so much sense. But I feel like right now I'm in the phase of like, I look at a computer all day every day. So when I'm in the studio, I don't want to look at a screen, which I think is also probably part of my Dad's experience. He's definitely a draughtsman. Craftsmanship to the nines, like draws all of his building still by hand. It's the very tangible kind of romance romantic process, the creative process. So my studio I have a lot of sketches that are hanging up really showing that the marker on the paper, and really showing each level of the creative process. So
Claire Waite Brown:
yeah, yeah, it's interesting about the digital thing. When I edit books, I do a lot of the work on desktop publishing programmes, but I need to print it out as well. I need to see it. And often when I see it to do editing, I will see things that I haven't seen that need changed than when I'm doing it on the screen. It depends on how, how things work best for you. You've mentioned some possible near future experiments with Canvas. Do you have any aspirations maybe further or failed maybe long term dreams?
Unknown:
Oh, I mean, as creatives I feel like we all have hundreds of those the long term dream projects. Within the next year, I really want to start exploring, or having an experience with the idea of doing a mural. There's a few projects that are potentially in the works, keep my fingers crossed. But I would love to do a mural space, I think especially something large scale. From that architecture influence I love the idea of a relatively permanent piece of art that people can interact with and be kind of immersed in would be super cool.
Claire Waite Brown:
Is a brilliant plan. I love a mural. Yes. So tell me then how people can connect with you. So tell me a bit more about the podcast and then do give me all your links and handles for how listeners can connect with you on the social medias in what have you?
Unknown:
Absolutely, yeah, so my website is Jacqueline sanders.com. So that's kind of the hub of everything. That's also where you can sign up for my newsletter. So Jacqueline sanders.com/newsletter, I only send one a week, so you're not gonna be flooded with anything crazy. But there I share events that I'm having with the studio behind the scenes blogs, also venturing into YouTube a bit more this year, as well as weekly podcast episodes for the level up artists podcast, my good friend Adriana Mae and I co host it both of us met before we had studios and art space and then we have gotten into art space at the same time. And so we have a lot of parallels in our creative practice and journeys, but also stark differences, which is so fun. So some episodes are just us some we interview other artists with really the mission of demystifying the creative process even more and exchanging ideas with career minded artists. But you can also connect with me on Instagram. That's probably the primary platform that I'm on at Jay Sanders studio. So I'm always sharing reels on their videos, as well as all my tic tac, which is also at Jay Sanders studio.
Claire Waite Brown:
Fabulous. Well, that's been absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for talking with me today. Jackie.
Unknown:
Thank you so much. This has been so much fun.
Claire Waite Brown:
I agree. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to creativity found. If your podcast app has the facility, please leave a rating and review to help other people find us on Instagram and Facebook follow at creativity found podcast and on Pinterest look for creativity found. And finally, don't forget to check out creativity found.co.uk The website connecting adults who wants to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them tap into their creativity.
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