How crafting can alleviate MS symptoms.
To keep her hands busy and her mind calm, Helen Hill crochets blankets for orphaned baby rhinos, among other things.
Her passions also help her to manage her MS symptoms, to sit still where usually her symptoms force her to be constantly active, to calm her restless legs, and generally to escape the everyday.
Helen was good at her studies, at school and as an undergraduate studying graphics, but she lacked confidence, in her work, and more generally. Faced with a world where you have to be prepared to take harsh criticism and potentially face micro-aggression, she didn’t feel she had the right mindset to start a career in graphics:
"I just didn't fit in in that world. And I got to the end of my degree and realized I'm just not ready for that yet."
So, she studied for a Masters, then trained to lecture in graphics.
It was round about this time that she started to struggle with an undiagnosed illness that affected her sight. Eighteen months later she was diagnosed with MS.
Now, Helen is a freelance e-course creator, writer, illustrator, podcaster and serial crafter, who finds that getting creative helps her manage her MS symptoms, and benefits her life in many other ways too.
Clubhouse: @clairewaitebrown and Creativity Found Connect club
Artworks: Emily Portnoi emilyportnoi.co.ukSupport the show
Hi, Helen. Hello, how are you? Good. Thank you. So can you start by telling me how you currently express yourself creatively? Yeah, IUnknown:
am someone that I do it in many ways. And it very much goes on a whim and what I want to do right in the moment, so I have so many hobbies and as my partner Graham says, craft corner in the living room where there's just a pile of things. So my main one actually is writing at the moment. Even though I said two years ago, I could never call myself a writer because I really love books and I love writers. Turns out I am one No, I would have to say and I've had a book out. But I do find it quite cathartic. So that's a big one for me. But also I've become a craft addict. So a few years ago, I started doing crochet buy, you know, never want to start easy trying to do the octopuses for preemie babies for the charity. And from there I have crocheted for neighbours for family not to sell. It's just purely to make me actually sit down. And from there, I thought, well, I quite like all this stuff with wool. So I did a weaving course for de weave a scarf in a day and absolutely loved it. And so got a loom for Christmas. So that's nearly weaving and quite often stroking the whole length of the front room while I'm setting it up. It's no wonder I driving potty. But then I do bits of other things. I've done whittling courses and also shredded my fingers to be honest with the knife. pottery, I'm looking at the moment and doing one that's glass fusing anything and everything that just takes my fancy, a local craft workshop place we have I do it and quite often end up saying, oh, I'll just buy the equipment. And I'll you know, I'll just have a tinker and the one that actually got me started was a silver smithing workshop for two days. Where, you know, I came out of that she said, nobody's ever made so many things in two days before I think I made seven pieces of jewellery whereas my partner made one and a bit ended up finishing ostomies for him. Absolutely loved it. And yeah, it's that's something I do want to pick up again, actually. Oh,Claire Waite Brown:
sounds like a wonderful opportunity to have that place nearby. Feel free to give it a name check. Where are you and what's the place?Unknown:
Yeah, so I'm based in Bingley in West Yorkshire and it's it's just called the craft house little craft house was originally set up in Shipley and well in Salta, which is a very crafty arty place. And they've recently moved to English so they have the bigger craft house and the little one though. Yeah, he's just a really nice, pleasant, amazing cake that they bring up while you're doing it as well and keep fueling you with coffees and juices and really beautiful place. So definitely big shout out for them actually.Claire Waite Brown:
That's important. Good cake.Unknown:
Yes. Especially when you're weaving all day, walking back and forth. Absolutely.Claire Waite Brown:
Brilliant. So in your school and home life when you were younger, was creativity encouraged and did you have opportunities like that? tend to get creative.Unknown:
Yeah, I did. I was basically one of those kids that did everything. So I did a lot of sport and got involved in every club, music, art, everything. But I did really love the graphics side of things and the art. And it's funny because none of my family were particularly creative at all. And they've actually all taken it up later in life. But yeah, I was the only creative one, but they really embraced it and encouraged me to do it, you know, and I actually as when I was at secondary school, didn't want to pick out as one of my options, but asked to do it as an extra GCSE in my own time. So I did it before and after school and actually wrote to friends in to do that with me as well. And we did a shock cost GCSE in our just because I loved doing it, but I just didn't want to use one of my options on it. Because I wanted to do the sport and I wanted to do history, as well. So yeah, it was very much encouraged and my parents forever were dropping me off at whatever club, whether it was our sport, or whatever, as well. And I was actually as part of a, it was like a gifted student club, which was again before school with a teacher that I don't think he was even paid. He just came in off the good of his back. He was brilliant Mr. DDS diagnosis in but he came in and ran like a gifted club force, it was about four of us out of a couple of different year groups where we even painted like a mural on a scout school wall and things like that. So I had him as like a sort of nurture thing as well. And even you wouldn't get away with this now, but used to take me on trips at the weekend. He took me to all kinds of places just to learn more about art, and he loved Winnie the Pooh. So I used to teach Mr. DroneDeploy.Claire Waite Brown:
Oh, how lucky what a wonderful opportunity for you that is so brilliant. You said then that you really liked graphics, and you studied graphics at a level and at uni. But you've told me that you lost your confidence in the graphics and in the wider creative world. So can you tell me more about that time and the feelings you were having, then?Unknown:
Yeah, it's funny, because all the way through my degree, I was doing really well, I was one of the top performing on the course. And I actually got to the end of the course. But I chronically had no confidence in anything. It wasn't just the graphics and the art. But it is a world where you have to pitch your work, you have to stand up and take very harsh criticism, it's very male dominated. There's also a lot of kind of micro aggression and just real attitude, you know, from people who come in quite big for the boots, you know, and I just didn't fit in in that world. And I got to the end of my degree and realised I'm just not ready for that yet. So I actually did the Masters just as a way of staying at University for another year. And that was a really rough year. Basically, there's a huge design company called attic and they ran the master's degree. So we did all the university work, but also did work for them at the same time. So it was very long days, absolutely exhausted. And I still came out with that lacking in confidence. So I went into the industry, but never quite found my place in the world. I didn't want to work for agencies, because I just didn't feel like that was my place in these big agencies. So I just worked for a small printing company at first went into a electronics company doing their marketing the design side of it and just eventually was poached into lecture in, you know, somebody floated the idea of why don't you try to be a lecturer in graphics and thought that actually brings in a couple of things I'm interested in. So I went down that route instead. And after a very rough time in lecture in actually just left graphics entirely. And I actually ended up in a secondary school developing elearning and literacy, which was where my love of writing got reignited. So I lost creativity for a while there, although I had on like, the genius on the side. I was just doing bits of logos for very little money, you know, like for 30 quid here and there and stuff just for extra pocket money. And didn't really see it as a business or a thing. I was particularly loving anymore at all. So yeah, and that was until I threw myself into self employment four years ago and everything changed.Claire Waite Brown:
Yeah, let's let's go over a bit of that journey a little bit. It was around about the time you qualified to be electoral when you were training to be a lecturer that you were diagnosed with MS. Is that right? Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about how MS affects you physically and what that means for you in your working and everyday life capacities?Unknown:
Yeah, it's it's a very unpredictable illness. So when I was first diagnosed, I had four relapses in very quick succession, which I lost my vision. And that was my main symptom. And that was what led to the diagnosis because I kept losing my vision in one eye. So after being told it was a migraine for 18 months, it was a mess. And I've been very lucky in that I've managed to manage it. Well. I've never had major relapses where you know, I can't walk and that kind of thing. I do however, have back problem that causes that sometimes. But so the vision was always the first presenting symptom. But what it's done over the years is just develop slowly, a few other things. So I have always had slightly restless legs, but they now go crazy. So I can have really violent spasms particularly at night, as I'm dropping off to sleep. And through the night, you know, I'm forever kicking Graham, getting dolled up for that one, it calls it the river dance, I wake up in a mind you I remember dancing again last night. And so that's been a big thing as well, that has stopped me sitting still. And I've just been on the go for years because I struggle to sit. So a lot of these crafts have actually helped me to do that and to focus on something else while I'm sitting down. So I do have things like wandering pain, muscle spasm, brain fog is a big thing, mostly because of fatigue. So I can just forget what I'm saying. And I'm actually just currently in my first relapse in seven years. So it started in February. And I literally only got acknowledgement of this from the hospital last Friday. So 13 weeks, it's taken to get any help. So during that time, you know, anxiety, depression comes back, I started having panic attacks again, because nobody was listening. So I'm very driven. Don't let it stop me doing stuff. I'm still going to the gym, even though I've developed vertigo for the first time with this relapse, I just have to grip the bike very well, I'm on it and things. But it's actually good for me to carry on. So long way of saying I manage it fairly well. But currently, I'm in a funny phase where Yeah, it's coming back to haunt me right now at the moment. So I've just got to kind of manage it well, but one of the ways I'm doing that is through creativity and crafts.Claire Waite Brown:
That's brilliant, we will definitely explore that. Can you explain to me sorry, and my absolute ignorance of this now? Why is it not there all the time? How is it managed in between? Why is it the case of you get relapses? And how are those when you're finally it's finally acknowledged medically that that's what you've got? How that is then treated medically? If you don't mind?Unknown:
No, no, that's absolutely fine. So there's three types of Ms. There's relapsing remitting, where you get these waves of symptoms flaring up, and then they will trail off usually after a few weeks. So generally, for me, it would be about six weeks or something. So when I say I had three, well, four relapses about the beginning, it would just be my I would flare up my vision would go, coordination and balance as a result and depth of field and all that kind of thing. And then they would put me on steroids, and it would ease and be fine again in in a few weeks. But then you have secondary and primary progressive where your symptoms are more constant every day, and what you can change from one to the other. So what we're investigating at the moment is whether I might be going from relapsing remitting into secondary, because this relapse that you know, starting in February should have gone by now. Even though I've not had any medication for it, it should start to ease on its own. And it's not it's actually changing. And I've got new symptoms appearing. So you've just got to kind of learn. And it's it's so hard because even the neurologists don't know a lot of the time what they attribute to the MS what the attributes are, like say I've got a back problem. So sometimes they'll say things are due to that. Sometimes they say it's just because you're stressed. And it is a real game of trying to kind of have the right conversations. And when it does flare up, I should be given Well, in the past, I've always been given steroids. But in the seven years since I had a relapse, apparently regulations have changed and guidance. So now I'm not allowed them. And I also wasn't allowed because I was going on a plane on holiday. And they said steroids lower your immune system. And with COVID. They didn't want me to be on a plane with COVID and having no immune system. So that was a whole game I didn't expect. So yeah, at the moment, it's a case of looking at because all the guidance has changed with disease modifying drugs and stuff, whether I might actually be better go in on those for the future, because they just slow down progression. And so that's the next step. Really.Claire Waite Brown:
I understand. Thank you. Yeah, that's very often in these situations have to keep pushing and pushing from your ends, don't you? Well, good for you to keep doing that. So going back to your story, going back to your creativity found story and your timeline. I'm actually just thinking about the vision though, because that was your first symptom. And that's so very important to your design work. So that surely will have had an effect on your confidence as well. Do you thinkUnknown:
massively and that's something that I've been saying to them for the last three months now when you know, because my my vision started to go again in March and they just be saying, Oh, well just take time off work. But I also work for myself. So I can't just do that. I can't just take it it'll be six months by the time we get to see the neurologist, I can't just take six months off work, even if I was employed, that's not going to go down. Well, that was part of why I had issues in that world of employment, because they didn't like the time off for appointments, and they didn't understand the pain that goes on. And so that's a whole different story. But yeah, it's, it is definitely something that affects me because reds just disappear and blues. And it's really foggy pulse, my depth perception is I can say so looking at a screen can be really hard. I've actually had to go and get new glasses just for for this relapse pretty much when you were already lacking in confidence, I think for something like that to happen is, is really hard. Especially, you know, I say like I say I've always been active as well. So when you told you've got a mess, and you hear about people in wheelchairs and struggling with mobility, and you've got all that fear as well of what am I going to lose that side of life as well. So it is a really big mental challenge to get past for sure.Claire Waite Brown:
Yeah, yeah, I can well imagine. So, back to your journey, about the elearning, then so you have a short stint in length lecturing, and then your approach to the elearning. What does that mean? And what does that involve? And how was that for you emotionally? Did you feel happier in that situation?Unknown:
Yeah, I think when I look back, I think pretty much all employment I struggled with, because I struggle with open plan offices. With my energy levels, I get really bad microphone use or like, background noises can drive me Pottier categories can't concentrate. And also, you know, that thing of having to commute for an hour each were sitting in office notify which of these will be roasting or freezing, all these things had an effect on, you know, something that is quite a sensory illness as well, because I get you tufts phenomenon as well, where heat exacerbates your symptoms. So all these things added up to obviously having quite a rough time plus being in pain post people not understanding and actually telling me they didn't believe I had Ms. So that was Yeah, so I left lecture in and actually worked as a teaching assistant for six months while I just worked out what I wanted to do. And it was actually someone contacted me through LinkedIn saying there's this job in a secondary school developing elearning. And literacy, I think it'd be perfect for HR to do it. So I did that for about three and a half years, I think. But then again, through LinkedIn, someone approached me saying, there's a job in an elearning agency, as a designer, so it brings together all those things you're teaching you design, your elearning your literacy jorts, go for it, I got that. And for the first year or two, I was really, I was actually really happy and really enjoying it. But I just got to that point where it was made clear, I wouldn't be going anywhere. You know, I kept having opportunities dangled and they didn't come off. And then other things started happening there that were really contributing to the anxiety, the depression, the you know, really, really struggling in the environment, I just got to the point where I had to walk, I had to have my notice. And I just couldn't put up with what I was being put through anymore. You know, I had such a range of skills, I was doing basically the whole process, which is very unusual people either right design or build, and I was doing the whole thing. So that's quite a selling point. And launch myself into doing unlikely genius full time turned it from a graphic design business into an elearning. One. And I haven't stopped work since for four years.Claire Waite Brown:
Really? Yeah. Yeah. Creativity found.co.uk is the place to go to find workshops, courses, supplies, kits and books to help you get creative. So if you're looking for your own creativity found experience, go have a browse to see what's on offer so far. And if you can help adults to find their new creative passion, please get in touch on social media, or through the contact details on the website. And what kind of courses are you making?Unknown:
Well, I started off pretty much doing anything. So I've done everything from health and safety to safeguarding to finance modules, how to use the new canon printers, it can be anything. But what I've really realised is that and this is partly because of my other business falling off the ladder that I really like the health, medical, environmental leadership, all that kind of thing, self development, I've kind of tried to niche myself just specifically into that. And I've just started work for a new client, which is a year's work actually they've hired before so and I'll be working on all that kind of stuff like leadership and coaching and training which absolutely just is perfect because I'm training to be a coach of the bone as well. They all comes together, well comes together.Claire Waite Brown:
chose to be a coach, and you mentioned they're falling off the ladder. Tell me about ladder.Unknown:
So, ah, oh gosh. Last year I had a book out called falling off the ladder, which is basically A book about how I got myself to where I am now how I got into a place where I'm thriving, I've got a thriving business and moved on from toxic workplaces being discriminated against being bullied, all that kind of stuff to where I am now. And it's just literally a book about how to change your mindset from the nine to five, working for someone else to being in charge of your own kind of business, your own destiny a little bit. It's just won the Business Book Award, they highly commended award in the wellness and wellbeing category. So that's been a huge, huge still in disbelief. Step. I still can't believe that one. Yeah, and off the back of that it was just really funny that the person Aaron Chamberlain, who mentored me through writing the book, and was my editor and runs the right now accountability group that I was part of that I wrote most of the book in. It said to me, I think you'll be a coach within five years. And I was like, Oh, don't be silly. No. And then something was planted, someone else made a similar comment. And All right, yeah. I do that.Claire Waite Brown:
It often takes people on the other side to see these things in you, doesn't it?Unknown:
Yeah, yeah. I just never would have thought at all. But yeah, it planted a seed. And I just love talking to other business owners about how to really get their head in the space and see their achievements and make steps forward and get out of that kind of feeling lost and where to go next. And what to do. And it's Yeah, so like I say, it's only early days, but it's I really enjoy it. So long may that live? Brilliant.Claire Waite Brown:
Yeah, as a freelancer for very many years, and trying new things more recently. There are often moments when you feel a bit lost, or you feel a bit like I kind of know what I want to do, but I don't know what order to do it in. Oh, just just need a bit of a pep talk or something. Yeah, yeah, definitely need those outside people, a bit of community or a bit of you're not all completely on your own. So that is really brilliant. Helen. Let's get on with why and how you started experimenting with crafting and how those endeavours benefit your everyday life and your health now. So you mentioned crocheting. Tell me about that. And what that kind of led you on to?Unknown:
Yeah, I think one of the things that sparked it off was actually when I was a lecturer, and it was really fun, because I was teaching 16 to 18 year olds, doing lots of workshops and stuff. And often they'd come in and teach me a technique I didn't know about it was great. And they loved it when I'd be like, This is amazing, right? Tell me how to do it. So that kind of ignited something in me. But I hadn't quite found what it was I wanted to do. And obviously teaching takes up all your time anyway. But so when I left the teacher, I kind of just wanted to find something a hobby that I could do at home. That was not netball, and all those things I was doing that I just kept injuring myself and keep itself worse than I already was. Ankles still not recovered. And you might like to do it at home and just feel like it was something that would make me relax. And I got into mindfulness and stuff as well. And it was when I saw a post on Facebook about these octopuses and I thought I could never go with that. And I've tried knitting in the past could not do that. But I thought right, maybe with ONE needle, ONE pocket might be all right. And while I was off, I still don't actually get many of the octopuses to pass, but I'm great at the jellyfishes. So that's all right, I can keep doing those. And the lovely thing is if they don't pass they still go to Angel babies. So when people lose their child, they get an octopus and the baby does as well for any that haven't passed regulations. So it's lovely even you know, they don't go to the, to the actual intended purpose but so yeah, started crochet and those and then next thing you know, I've got all the books about curiosity and different animals because I love animals so much started crocheting a whale that I thought it was going to be 20 centimetres, and it's longer than my leg. So that's better on the back of a city. And I've actually been banned from making any more for the house. So I had to make dinosaurs for my nephew. I've made Safari animals for a neighbour on the estate from from there, I actually started crocheting for blankets for baby rhinos, literally make blankets for orphaned baby rhinos, and the guys that go out in the desert at night and protect them from poachers. So I've done blankets and hats for the for those guys. Yeah, and I've actually ended up as like their designer now doing design socks for them and all sorts of but yeah, and calendars and all that kind of thing. All that kind of just set me off on doing these things that like to crochet is great for mindfulness, because you've got to sit and count and you've got to pay attention to what you're doing. So you can't be thinking about work, or about all the jobs you've got to do around the house or anything. I've just got to be counting. So it's just brilliant for that. And then like I said, the restless legs, I can't sit and watch TV and just do that. We don't actually have one anyway, but Do watch Netflix on my tablet or something, I have to be doing something else and keeping my hands busy. And he just does that for me. It just makes me sit and I can crochet a whole jellyfish while binge watching a couple of episodes of Big Bang Theory. So it's been really good for me in that way. Because like I say, I never stop. Otherwise I just keep going and going. And then like, say, I, we moved here to Bengali. And luckily at the same time, the Crafthouse have moved to Bingley. And who doesn't want to go and make a pottery hair? Like Moon gazing hair? Was one of them. I can't believe what came out of that. And yeah, like so the weaving the scarf and everything. So yeah, it's just one of those things that all came together. And I just keep finding more and more things now. And I should probably stop and not take on any more hobbies. But let's face it.Claire Waite Brown:
Otherwise, you can be all work and no play. And this Yeah, this is benefiting you in many other ways. But it's also very enjoyable. And we often forget that we can do things just for the fun of it.Unknown:
Yeah, well, this is it. And it's very easy to start going, Oh, I'll start weaving scarves and selling them on Etsy and things. And I was about to do that. And actually, like someone said to me, that's when it doesn't become fun anymore. When you've got regulations, you've got people mourning because it didn't look very good on the pictures and all of that. So I've just like doing it for gifts and for like I also took resin crafts, like sort of making resin jewellery, and that's pretty much all the time for family so far, and things and then, you know, it was really nice that my sister spotted something, actually on Etsy and then said, can you make this and we lost my dad and my grandma last year. And what I've done is trap their funeral flowers in some resin frozen oil and stuff as well. And like a little paperweight thing. And just even being able to do stuff like that, that actually really means something for all our family and keep that little reminder, a memento of them both. It's it's just, it's really nice to be able to do that. I say with absolute catastrophe behind me, I'm glad you can't see it. I need to finish. We sat there for ages.Claire Waite Brown:
That's all part of it. It's probably also even if it's subconsciously or maybe it is consciously these things are going to be imparting information onto your brain may be informing stuff that you do in work, obviously helping you mentally and physically to a certain extent. But it's possibly feeding in neurons and all sorts of other things as well.Unknown:
Oh, definitely. And you know, you know, the funny thing that's come out of this in two job interviews for contracts for my freelancing, the first thing that has been said is tell me about blankets for baby rhinos, because it's on my LinkedIn profile. And I've gone on and got those two jobs, because they've just been like, you're the kind of person we can work with. Yeah. And that is a totally unintended kind of expected benefit, really. But yeah, the interview I had just just before I went on holiday, and I've just started the work last week. That was the first thing we asked him, I love it. That's amazing. Tell me more tell me about the octopuses. And it's a way of them getting to know you as well. So yeah, it's really nice. But yeah, I do think it makes a big difference. I mean, for for the third business, but in the future. I'm doing a lot of illustration at the moment. And that's been really cathartic to get back into that because ever since I was little, I've wanted to write and illustrate a children's book, that has been a big goal. But I've never been brave enough. I didn't think I was a writer, and I didn't have the confidence in the design work. And well, you know, I'm now a co founder of beat the future with Sally and Sally's writing the book with you know, my input. And I'm just starting the illustration now. And it is so lovely to feel that I'm finally going to achieve that thing that I've wanted for so long. And I actually really love how it's going. The fear was stopping me getting started for a while. And I just kept researching creating more Pinterest boards, you know, for inspiration. But I'm really happy with it so far. Like the front cover and a few characters in but like, it is a really nice feeling like share those neurons that are going no thinking I'm actually going to do this. I'm actually going to have a children's bookClaire Waite Brown:
that is so exciting. It's so exciting that you are drawing as well even if it weren't for this book, but it's obviously a very important project. So tell me a bit more about the project.Unknown:
Yeah, so be the future is all about helping parents to raise the Eco leaders of the next generation so young children really get them embracing nature, but what we really want to do is reduce the Eco anxiety so we're doing it all through fun and storytelling, and my sarcasm like Sally's always like please add sarcasm to this get more of that in there with just want it to be fun instead of all the doom and gloom in the horrible statistics. So, you know the branding of created furrows is all bright and colourful, based on the rainbow colours. We run Not through everything. And yeah, I get to express myself with the writing in my tone of voice, like say my sarcasm, my poems, my silliness, and be the big kid, I like being nevermind, you know, trying to inspire the actual children. And I get to illustrate, I get to, you know, sometimes I'm using stock imagery and stuff, sure. But like, it's pulling everything together, my design skills, my teaching skills, we've just released an activity book for all weathers. So it's called whatever the weather. And it's just like six pages of if it's raining, here are some activities. It's sunny here, to all aimed at helping young children engage with nature, and learn some Eco anxieties in tips without even necessarily realising that's what they're doing. So you're not saying right, we're going to sit down and make you feel calm, or you're going about it a different way. So I've just absolutely loved doing that. And it's, yeah, we've got very giddy with the amount of stuff we want to do. It's just a passion project at the moment. But it's gaining ground. And hopefully, when we get the books and games and other resources out later this year, that will be a fully fledged business. And yeah, just helping other people. SoClaire Waite Brown:
well, you are achieving so much. And it's wonderful to hear. And it's wonderful to hear it in your voice as well in your excitement and your pleasure and joy. Everything that you're doing creatively now and for the good of the future as well. Yeah,Unknown:
absolutely. Yeah, we need to do what we can but enjoy it in the process. I'm all about the enjoyment.Claire Waite Brown:
Let us know how people can connect with you let us know all your different contacts and the different projects and how people can connect with you via those regions.Unknown:
Yeah, I am literally everywhere, I've got to say with all the different things but if you're interested in be the future, head to our be the future dot Earth website. And that's got all the links for our social media, Twitter and Instagram and things and our whole pack to thrive podcast on there where we're talking to leaders in Environmental Action. Some incredible guests have said yes, we can't believe it. So come on, listen to that. And otherwise, I'm either you can either go to unlikely genius.com are falling off the ladder.com. And that, again, has got all my links to my social media, mostly hanging out and falling off the ladder.com at the moment because of obviously the book. So you can find me on Instagram. I've fallen off the ladder as well on LinkedIn. Follow slash Helen Hill.Claire Waite Brown:
Thank you so much, Helen. It's been such a lovely jet.Unknown:
No, thank you very much. Thanks for having me.Claire Waite Brown:
You're welcome. Thanks so much for listening to creativity found. If your podcast app has the facility, please leave a rating and review to help other people find us on Instagram and Facebook follow at creativity found podcast and on Pinterest look for at creativity found. And finally, don't forget to check out creativity found.co.uk The website connecting adults who wants to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them tap into their creativity.