Rowena Roberts – authentic creativity

Helping you find your unique writing voice.
Just because you’ve got a solid background and experience in something that you are good at and successful in, doesn’t mean you have to stick with it if you no longer enjoy it. For this episode I’m speaking with Rowena Roberts, who became disheartened in her role as a sought-after copywriter so, with some guidance and courage, found a new channel for her writing and creativity

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Researched, edited and produced by Claire Waite Brown
Music: Day Trips by Ketsa Undercover / Ketsa Creative Commons License Free Music Archive - Ketsa - Day Trips
Artworks: Emily Portnoi emilyportnoi.co.uk
Photo: Ella Pallet

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Transcript

Claire Waite Brown: 0:25

Just because you've got a solid background and experience in something that you're good at and successful in, doesn't mean you have to stick with it if you no longer enjoy it. For this episode, I'm speaking with Rowena Roberts, who became disheartened in her role as a sought after copywriter. So with some guidance and courage, found a new channel for her writing and her creativity. Hi, Rowena.

Unknown: 2:48

Hi, Claire.

Claire Waite Brown: 2:50

You are a creativity coach for writers, but for general well being as well. So can you start by telling me how you help other people to navigate their creativity?

Unknown: 3:02

Yes, well, I've done various sorts of creative writing courses myself. But what I find that I really want to offer people is more work that looks at the writers as well as the writing. So I use creative writing exercises to help people to go a little bit deeper into themselves and know themselves and understand themselves. So they can channel a little bit more of themselves into their own creativity, and maybe heal some things along the way, especially if they're kind of stuck around blocks or inner critic or any of those kinds of issues.

Claire Waite Brown: 3:38

Oh, brilliant. Fabulous. Did you have a creative childhood? And was your creativity encouraged at that stage?

Unknown: 3:47

Um, yes. And no, I, I always loved reading and writing. nobody actually knows when I started to learn how to read, they just realised that about the age of two that I was reading. So it was always new words, were always a big thing for me. And as soon as I could write, I loved writing as well. I used to write like silly little poems and songs. And but when I was about nine years old, I kind of shifted my writing into more just sort of very practical fact based stuff. I had a bit of an incident at school, which was, we were all told to keep a diary that we would just sort of submit to our teacher on a regular basis. But she said you could write anything in and it's not for public consumption, as it were. It's just like a lot practice. And so sometimes I would write diary entries. Sometimes I would write stories and I was big into Enid Blyton and Famous Five and all of that kind of stuff. So I wrote some really quite terrible, you know, copies of any Blyton and it was around me and my best friend at the time and I think I called it the terrific two or or something like that. But there was one time when I'd had an argument with my best friend and was really annoyed with her. And I wrote a chapter in this story which in which I was really quite mean. I think I was just I was doing which I understand now he's just kind of processing my emotions and letting it out in a creative outlet. But yeah, I turned her into a bit of a bumbling fool and she was making mistakes and you know, messing things up for us and all that that I wrote it. And I felt better and didn't think anything more of it until I handed in the diary. And my teacher made an announcement and said that she'd like to ask someone to read an extract from their diary. And she was going to choose me out to the whole class. And she wanted me to read the last thing that I'd written. And I remember like looking at her with this sort of horror of maybe she doesn't realise what she's asked me to do. And her looking back at me with this sort of straight look of now I know exactly what I've asked you to do. And I look back on it. And I think, why on earth did she do that, and I think maybe she had genuine intentions of, you know, you shouldn't be writing this kind of stuff. And I'm going to make sure that you, you learn the lesson, you know, maybe she had great intentions, or maybe she was just really me. But, but either way, I have to then stand up in front of the class and read out this extract, in which I've made my best friend into an absolute fool. And so the class was all giggling, and my friend was just getting more and more and more embarrassed. And it was just Yeah, it was terrible. It was a really awful experience. And I didn't consciously change anything from that point. But unconsciously I did. From that point on, I would tell people, I'm no good at writing fiction. Yeah, my fiction is just, I don't have the imagination for it. I don't have the, the playfulness or the creativity, but I became an absolute star at writing essays, you know, just sort of constructing arguments really, really carefully and making sure that everything was very balanced. So in some ways, it did help me. But it took me a long while to go back to to that kind of creativity. I became a copywriter, you know, so it was all about helping businesses to communicate what they were really good at, in a in a very kind of clear and concise way. But it was only when I started doing my own experimentation and returning a little bit to poetry. And when I had my kids, I would write little short stories for them, that I stopped and suddenly started to realise that I'd left that part of me behind. And that was probably why I did it. And you know, looking back on that episode, that's probably what shifted for me because I used to love doing that. So it was always there. And I was able to reclaim it along that path. That's really,

Claire Waite Brown: 7:55

no matter what her intentions, if her intention was you shouldn't be writing this, then she's stifling you from that point of view. If her intention was I can't think what her other intention was. But the but the thing at the very beginning was, it wasn't for human consumption. And this was for you to be able to let it all out. And she just took away that trust. And then such a big effect. That's Oh, horrible. That's a terrible story.

Unknown: 8:20

Yeah, indeed. I mean, I do look back and think if your intentions had been good, surely you just would have taken me aside and gone. Look, you know, I realised what you've done here. It's not a very nice thing to do, and given me a bit of a telling off, not just humiliate me in front of the whole class.

Claire Waite Brown: 8:37

Or even like, Is there a problem between you and your friend? You know, even deeper than that, can I help you with anything? Yes, that would have been nice. So you mentioned that you went into copywriting? Did you know that that was something specifically you wanted to do like after school? How did you progress? What were your plans,

Unknown: 8:57

I always wanted to write and I always knew that it had to involve writing. So I considered I did a bachelor's degree and a master's degree, I did consider doing a PhD and staying in academia for a while because I had ideas around around what I was doing. But I also wanted to sort of see what the real world quotation marks was like, as well. So I figured I could always go back into academia if I wanted, but I wanted to leave and do my own thing. And, and as it turned out, I didn't want to go back into academia. I did want to travel. But so I took a year out travelled for years, I kept a diary. And when I came back, I decided, wouldn't it be great to be a travel writer and get paid to go to different places? And so I did, I was lucky enough to be able to do that for a while, I worked for a local magazine that had only just started and they said, What can you write about? And I said, Well, I've just come back from travelling around the world. I can write about the places that I've been to. So I did that. I worked for a local newspaper for a while as well, but I was never quite comfortable with the idea of reporting journalism, like knocking on people's doors and asking them questions at difficult times in their life. And I didn't really feel like that was for me. So writing things about like travel locations, and I did some restaurant reviews and things like that, and that was great. I enjoyed that. And then I moved from there into copywriting. And I really enjoyed especially working I work I worked for a university. I did a lot of their marketing for a while and They also worked for myself with small businesses, because I really enjoyed being able to get to the heart of what they were good about, you know, they kind of miss what they're good at. So especially when you're working with small businesses, they'll just sort of say, Oh, we do this. And we do this. And like, Yeah, but how do you do it? What makes it really good, and what makes working with you or your particular products, so great, and I really enjoyed that. But as time went on, I just found myself, I think, with the whole rise of social media, I found myself detaching a little bit more from it, because people would suddenly be getting all this information from people around, I suddenly had a lot of clients saying, to me things like, I really want to push the pain points. Just like, you know, they've heard some kind of marketing 101. And they were just like, This is what we need to do. And I was just like, No, I'm not comfortable with that kind of marketing at all. So I just kind of kept stepping back from it. And I realised through investigating more creative writing myself doing some exercises, reading some books, I've always kept a diary or a journal. And I would experiment in there with different different ways of expressing myself and getting to know myself and processing things. And I realised that a lot of what I really enjoyed about copywriting was actually quite intuitive. Like, for example, if somebody sent me a brief over email, I would never feel as comfortable as if I would be able to speak to them. Which was funny, because I was really shy. And on the one hand, I would have thought it would be much easier if I could deal with everything over email. But I found that it was just easier if I spoke to people face to face or over the phone. And I would be able to pick up things about them that they hadn't told me and put that into their copywriting. But I never really thought of it as thing I was just, I didn't think of it as intuition at all. I just, I didn't even know what I thought it was, but But I realised that I was able to do that. And I started digging more into intuition, my own intuition, and intuition in general, and realise that a lot of what I was doing in my, my creative writing was quieting the mind tapping into my intuition and letting words flow from from that space. So in actual fact, it felt like quite a natural transition to be able to do that kind of work for organisations and for businesses, and then start to be able to do it for people to point them in the direction of their own intuition and what they were capable of and what their talents were and start to bring that out for them.

Claire Waite Brown: 13:39

So do you think was there a catalyst that led you to start exploring more creative writing for yourself? You mentioned, you had earlier had the opinion that I can't write that way I write this way I write within these parameters in this style. Why did you come to start exploring other ways for you to write to get to this point of understanding about intuition?

Unknown: 14:05

Yeah, I was getting to this point in copywriting where I was a little bit depressed is a bit of a heavy and a hard word. But it wasn't really that but at the same time, I was a bit bored, to be perfectly honest. Yeah, everything just seemed to be like, here's the formula, whatever the business is, write it in that in that sort of vein, but when I started doing some freelance work, a friend a copywriter, recommended that I read a book called me we them in it, which is by John Simmons, who basically if you've heard anything about tone of voice in branding, he pretty much created that idea. Not a lot of people actually know that. But his books are all about tone of voice and creativity in writing. And it's a really, really wonderful book that brings creative writing of the kind that you just enjoy reading into business. So poetry so emotion, all of this kind of stuff that I think he and other people like him I've just like, reading can be so enjoyable, why is it so awful reading business writing, to kind of dig through it, you know, all the jargon, you know, all of that kind of stuff that people have. So he has basically sort of built a career and a business and books all around how to bring more creative writing into business. So I read pretty much all of his books, and I realised that he'd set up an organisation along with a couple of his friends called Dark Angels, and was starting to run creative writing for business courses. So I just signed myself up because I was just like, This is what I want to be doing. I love reading. I love writing I love the power of words. And I feel like the power of words is totally being lost in copywriting because it's, it's either filled with jargon or it's fitting, it's really kind of pushy and inauthentic. And I really wanted to see what he had to offer. And one of the things that I really loved about the Dark Angels courses was that I mean, they were retreats, you got to go away on sort of beautiful locations. And it was mostly people who wrote commercially. But there was also people who weren't copywriters. They were still in business, but they were doing sort of other jobs. But it was full of people who were just like, not really a writer, not really a writer, but I am here to write and I'm here to write better for my business. And they were really able to draw out the writer in everybody and just sort of say, look, it doesn't matter really, how you write, you know, how you feel, you can write whether you feel like you are a writer or not. But as long as what you're saying is authentic. And if you can play with it in certain ways, then it has an impact on people. And that was a really lovely lesson to receive, I think. And one of the one of the kind of classic exercises from Dark Angels is to set you a task a writing task and give you five minutes to complete it in which the very first time it happens is horrifying. It's just like, you know, write a little short poem, and you've got five minutes like, but then at the same time, it also takes the pressure off, because everyone is just like, oh, well, I can't be expected to write anything good in five minutes. So I'll just write and see what comes out. And what would come out would often be really, really wonderful, and really, really good. And this stuck with me for quite some time after the retreat. And I would wonder, what is it about that that works so well. And again, through doing my own reading and experimentation, I realised that what it did was that it quieted your mind, you know, the mind that would normally be sitting there going, Okay, what's the right word to put next? And think about this? If you've got five minutes, then you have to tell that part of your mind, yes, Shut up a minute, let me do something. But that's, that's what it did. It quieted your mind. And then you could tap into something else that was there. And I realised, when you can tap into that something else, that's when it becomes really authentic, that's when you are tapping into your intuition. And that is when you can actually create something really, really wonderful without thinking about it. And that, to me, was a real kind of game changer in how I addressed my own writing, and what I felt I could offer to others, because we all kind of stuck in our heads and stuck in our thoughts and stuck in our to do list. And we have that little critic that's there all the time, which makes a wonderful editor. But when you're trying to be creative, and when you're trying to just sort of see what wants to come through you. Yeah, that voice can't be there.

Claire Waite Brown: 18:55

And were you able to use those principles within the business copywriting that you were getting a bit disillusioned by?

Unknown: 19:04

I was yes. And it was really, really lovely. It was nice to be able to I would do different things for my clients, I went through quite a phase of writing poetry for people that would be part of their brand, there was a small festival that was going on locally where I lived, and they wanted some to build some excitement around that. But at the same time, they had like press releases and things like that, and all the things about the event. So I wrote a short story for them, which was all about the underlying values and principles of this festival. It involved characters that were based on some of the businesses that were there, and it came out totally from nowhere. I mean, I stood and I was so weirdly confident about it. I wrote a chapter every day, we literally had a week before the festival was going on. And I wrote one chapter every day, and I was totally confident that Yep, there's going to be one chapter every day. No, I have no idea where it's going. But it was really, really lovely. It's still one of the pieces of copywriting I think I'm kind of most proud of. But it was from that being thoroughly immersed in that business and that festival and, and even the area, I knew the area really, really well. And then just suddenly going right pop, I'm going to release something and it's coming out and I'm not going to think about it. And I'm just going to just going to trust it and go with it. And yeah, that was that really felt like a big game changer for me.

Claire Waite Brown: 20:29

Oh, that's brilliant. You were able to use that. Creativity found.co.uk is the place to go to find workshops, courses, supplies, kits and books to help you get creative. So if you're looking for your own creativity found experience. Go have a browse to see what's on offer so far. And if you can help adults to find their new creative passion, please get in touch on social media, or through the contact details on the website. But how did you move more into actually sharing everything that you learned and everything that you were getting excited by with this kind of intuitive writing? How did you decide to then actually start sharing that with other people and coaching other people yourself?

Unknown: 21:25

Yes, that's a good question. I think, clients who came to me and gave me more creative freedom I still really enjoyed working with but a lot of people increasingly were coming to me going, I need a sales funnel for this. And they were being a lot more prescriptive with stuff that I wasn't again, very comfortable doing. And then I will have my own coaching, which was with a really interesting coach. And I was really kind of drawn to her. And I couldn't really explain why. And it turned out that she herself was in the middle of this transition. I mean, what we started off at the beginning. And what we ended up at the end was a very different kind of coaching container. We all thought we were coming along to just sort of get some advice. And actually, what really happened was that she used her intuition on each of us. And we would talk about what was going on, and she would sort of zoom in on something and go, this is something for you to look at. And she was realising herself that actually, she was not really doing business coaching, she was looking directly at people and being able to pull out things from them and going, this is unique to you. This is a talent for you. And I know her I still know her today, and she's now a shamanic practitioner, she does blessing, she does drumming, she does very, very deep, intuitive work. And it's really quite amazing to to see where she's gone from that which I think is quite reflective of how the world itself has been changing over the past few years. And we're finding these other paths that that can still be used as really good tools for business and for personal development, but just embrace all these other elements as well. So yeah, I have some coaching from her, which initially was supposed to be like the copywriting. But one thing that she asked me is looking back, she probably picked up on the fact that I was trying to make a go of this business, because I'd had years of copywriting experience. So at this point, I think had been doing it for about 16 years. And I knew that I was really enjoyed some elements of it, but other elements in the direction it was going, I wasn't enjoying. And she said to me, what would you do if you could do absolutely anything? And for some reason, I Well, I know for the reason. The reason is, I was sort of thrown straight back into those Dark Angels retreats. And and I said, that's what I would do, I would run, I would love to be able to run retreats for people where they just felt really relaxed and really at home and encouraged to let their own creativity come out or to you know, overcome all the fears that are generally there around it, and just go, what can I create and just enjoy that and just feel really kind of peaceful and fun. And she looked at me and he was just like, oh, well, there you go, then. And oh, I can't do that though. Can I you know, it's like what you mean, I'm just allowed to pick something that sounds really wonderful. And I think, oh, we'd really love to do that. I'm gonna go, oh, yeah, I could do that. And it really kind of threw me but at the same time, I was just like, yeah, why not? Why can't I do what it is that I really want to do? Why am I trying to fit myself into something just because I have this big background. I mean, it got to the point where I was quite happy to call myself a senior copywriter, I could have, you know, just started charging a load of money for what it is that I was doing. Because I had all of the background, I had all the knowledge, I knew that what he did was really good. But I also knew that I was I was just moving away from it. It didn't feel as authentic to me anymore. Even the stuff that I still enjoyed doing even the creative stuff in the poetry. Sometimes I would sit there and go, is that exactly what they need? I'm not certain that it is. And I didn't like being in that position anymore. So that was when I started looking at okay, well maybe I can do something with creative writing that is going to encourage other people to do it and have the same effect on on them but has been hard on me. So using some of the things that I've already learned, playing around with things myself and seeing what else I can come up with and what else I can create. So I've started some local classes just where I live, a little community centre, and I ran like two or three and it was they were really small. And it was really funny because I think I had so little confidence in myself and my ability to do it that I charge like five pound for people to come along. And then I baked a cake to take and at the time as well. I didn't really bake cakes. back from work. He was like, what do you do? It's So I'm baking a cake for my class. And he says, say you're charging five pounds, and you're taking cake, you're essentially charging people for cake. And then you're turning up and doing your work for free. Yeah. Is what I'm doing. But they did go really well, I did enjoy doing it. But that didn't last very long, because this was 2020. And then lockdown came along. And so there we know, from face to face classes, nothing. So and all of my copywriting clients went away at the same time, because most of them were small businesses. And, you know, with all the uncertainty, a lot of people very understandably, went okay. Now's not the time for marketing. And I have these two conflicting voices in my head, one of which was just like, you've got to go out and get some clients. And the other one was, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to go and find any new clients, I don't want to convince anyone to work with me, I either see this as some kind of disaster and go scrambling around trying to find more clients again, or I look at it as this is an opportunity to try this for real to see if I can make a business out of this. So I did, I launched online courses. And I think for me, as well, certainly where I was at that time, that probably made life a lot easier for me, because I still felt I was still quite shy, I was still a little bit nervous of stepping into the spotlight and leading. And being able to do it online over zoom felt a lot more comfortable for me. And yeah, it went really well. And I moved, I was able to move from just sort of saying, I'm offering creative writing classes, and almost learn how to articulate more exactly what it was that I was doing. So my first course was called right from the heart. And that's really what it was, I was just trying to ask, invite people to say, okay, you can play with these writing exercises, and you can play with this, but I'm interested in you, and what's inside you. And just trying to create exercises around them that I knew would be able to bring out things around around them and their own creativity while still being able to do things like you know, poetry and most things that people assume they cannot write. But it's like you can you can you just have to find the right way to do it the right voice for you.

Claire Waite Brown: 28:18

Yeah, so it's very similar to what you've already mentioned about being with clients and reading them, so to speak is the same now that with the coaching, so what can people expect? If they join you if they come to one of your online workshops, or anything else that you offer? Yes, haha.

Unknown: 28:42

Unexpected, I would like to. But no, it really is a balance of the writer and the writing. So I introduce people to this idea that a lot of your creative tivity doesn't come from your thinking brain. So I'll introduce them to exercises that will help them to quieten the mind, and help them to tap into more intuitive ways of writing things that are deeper and more authentic, and come from a place of more sort of heart lead, really, and realise that they can be created from there because a lot of people again, don't realise that they think that they think everything that they create, and actually no, you know, some of your best creative ideas can come when you're walking, or when you're in the shower, you know, not when you're actually thinking about it, but they just sort of pop in, you lay the intentions and you think about it, and then you go away and don't think about it. And that's when the answers will pop in. So I try and get people more aware of that. Give them exercises to help them to do that. And then also use creative writing exercises to dig into themselves a little bit deeper and understand what is it that I really want to say what is it that I really enjoy? What is it that stops me from thinking that I can do this as well. I have one exercise that I really enjoy doing with as many people as possible which is connecting with your creative Damon, which is like this sort of innate creative spirit, I believe everybody has an inside them. It's like a guided visualisation, you can go in within yourself and connect with that part of yourself that longs to create something in the world. And just find out a little bit more about it. It's interested in how to nurture it, how to connect with it more in your daily life. And help give it the confidence to come out into the world and do its thing.

Claire Waite Brown: 30:38

Brilliant. Oh, that's really fabulous. Rowena. So what are your plans for the future?

Unknown: 30:45

I do still have those retreats in mind. So I really think that that is that is really where I'm going. But I've had to go through on this journey myself. I've had to go through the doing the online things and doing it small and gradually having more understanding myself really of what it is that I'm offering what it is that I do with people and being able to articulate it more myself being able to run different types of courses, and then reaching this point where I feel so confident in what it is that I do and really enjoy actually being a died and being a leader for people on this journey, finding my own way of leading people through it that I think, now is the time to start bringing it face to face. Instead of just the online stuff. I love the online stuff. And it means I get to work with people from all over the world. But yes, the future I think is going to be retreats and being able to create space and time over a longer period where people can just come in, immerse themselves and share this creative side of themselves and see what wants to come out of them.

Claire Waite Brown: 31:45

I think that's been the connection of the two certainly for me in this podcast, having to go completely online has actually widened my circle has meant I can speak with so many more guests, as you're saying from from around the world. But it's also great to be able to combine the two and still be able to connect in real life. Feel Real bodies, like around the room? Not necessarily completely feeling them. Yes, I think that that kind of combination. So with that in mind, tell us how people can connect with you, and also how they might work with you what your offerings may be going forward. So at the

Unknown: 32:25

minute, I think if you want to get a better idea of who I am and what I'm about and probably look for me on Instagram, I'm word inspire UK, I talk a lot about what it is that I do. But I also share writing that I do and thoughts around the work that I do. I also run a free online network of writers, which is words inspire writers, and that's on mighty networks. Again, the links are there in my Instagram, people can access all of my courses and programmes through that I'm running an online programme through that at the minute called open to inspiration, which has been a pilot programme, it's gone. So well. It's a 12 month programme. We're nearing the end of it now. And I'm going to relaunch it again for September and and there's my website as well words inspire.co.uk, where you can learn more about one to one coaching that I do with people as well as the small group courses and any upcoming workshops and fingers crossed retreats that I will run in the future

Claire Waite Brown: 33:20

that like the way you said as well about maybe not knowing what the creative thing is you want to do. Yeah, I think often people think I should know, I want to do this, or I have this project and I'll go to a creative coach or go to somebody with help. Because I have something very specific in mind. But it doesn't have to be that it can be I want to do something, but I don't even know what it is. And also, as you mentioned, with your own coaching, you might go there thinking you want one thing and come away realising that wasn't what you wanted at all. This other thing is much more what you want, and you need someone from the outside to help you bring that out, which is what you can do so absolutely love that.

Unknown: 34:01

Yeah, definitely. And that's a really good point. Actually, I think I know a lot of people who are very creative, I've worked with a lot of people in the creative industries, you know, around advertising and things like that, that have so much potential for their own creativity, but they they're so used to channelling it in other directions according to other people's wants and desires and needs and what the what other people think they should be doing that it becomes quite difficult to then look at your own creativity and go what do I want to create? That's always quite a big part of what it is like to do is help people get in touch with that and go is this really what I want to be doing? Is this really what I want to be creating? Or is there something else and there's so many people out there who come to me who just like I really want to do something and I don't know what it is you know, they have all this passion and motivation but they've never had the time or encouragement to look within themselves and go what is in here and when you can tap into that. It makes it so much easier but it's the tapping into it that's the hard part I think

Claire Waite Brown: 35:05

definitely that's another good sound bite for the whole creativity found ethos. Thank you so much for speaking with me today row we know it's been really inspiring and lovely to hear from you.

Unknown: 35:19

Thank you Claire. I've really enjoyed it myself as well. I love talking about

Claire Waite Brown: 35:24

it. Thanks so much for listening to creativity found. If your podcast app has the facility, please leave a rating and review to help other people find us on Instagram and Facebook follow up to creativity found podcast and on Pinterest look for at creativity found. And finally, don't forget to check out creativity found.co.uk The website connecting adults who wants to find a creative outlet with the artists and crafters who can help them tap into their creativity.